Infrastructure Projects (Community Benefit)

Debate between Luciana Berger and John Hayes

Thursday 18th October 2012 Westminster Hall

[Mr Hayes]

It is often my experience—you are the personification of this, Mr Walker—that people of great insight are often people of great generosity. My hon. Friend has illustrated that in his contribution so far and exemplifies it in his generous remarks a moment ago.

We will need to do a significant amount of work in respect of skills. I began to take an interest in the number of people who will be associated with this nuclear development and the skills required in my previous job as Minister for Further Education, Skills and Lifelong Learning. I hosted a meeting with the industry to begin to quantify the skills needed and the infrastructure that we would need to put in place to meet that need.

In talking about community benefit, we need to speak about the chance that this development offers us to invest in the local community through the provision of a range of jobs at all skills levels. We have to get that right, and we must not in any sense do so out of sync with other considerations.

[Luciana Berger]

I have listened carefully to the Minister. I welcome his identifying the need to consider such skills, particularly when the skill set has not been needed for quite a while. What conversations has he had with his colleagues at the Department for Business, Innovation and Skills about what investment may or may not be going into our universities? I understand that the nuclear departments of universities are depleted or not in the state that they should be in.

[Mr Hayes]

I miss my colleagues at BIS. I miss the Minister for Universities and Science, my right hon. Friend the Member for Havant (Mr Willetts), although happily I visited him briefly at BIS yesterday. Let me assure the hon. Lady that I have discussed this matter specifically with my successor. It may necessitate a new initiative, bringing together BIS and my Department in a way that allows us to continue to explore where the provision will come from to meet the skills needs. It is a further education and a higher education challenge. We need to ensure that that work is co-ordinated across the two Departments, precisely as the hon. Lady describes. In initial discussions, I suggested to my right hon. Friend that he and I, and others, should combine to ensure coherence and consistency across the Government.

--- Later in debate ---

[Mr Hayes]

I described the assiduity of my hon. Friend the Member for Bridgwater and West Somerset in representing his constituents, and perhaps it is matched by that of my hon. Friend the Member for Suffolk Coastal (Dr Coffey), who has spoken to me repeatedly and at great length about the interests of her constituents. She hosts an existing nuclear power plant. I am grateful for her acknowledgement of the progress that is being made. I have never been an excessive stickler for punctuality, which I always think is the preoccupation of very small minds and people who do not have much to do.

A community benefit package should indeed go well beyond section 106 agreements. The sum of money is large, but community benefits must be more than that. The national infrastructure plan, which was published in 2011, committed the Government, as the hon. Member for Liverpool, Wavertree said, to introducing proposals by the end of the year for reform of the community benefit regime. Since the last debate, I have done a lot of work on this in a number of ways, as have my wonderful officials. We have looked at a range of means by which a community benefit package might be delivered, and we are close to a conclusion. The hon. Lady will be pleased about that because, charmingly and with appropriate diligence, she pressed me on the timetable.

I am pleased to say that we have made progress in considering the options. We are considering how a community benefit package can best be delivered in the interests of local people in line with the principles that it should be meaningful for the community, be spent by the community, be fair and equitable across different sites, and have a long-term impact.

The focus of a community benefit package is on planning and investment for the time after the construction period, enabling long-term, sustainable growth by redeploying labour and creating new business opportunities. That will help to ease the transition between the fluctuating employment levels during construction, and the more stable and sustained employment levels associated with operation of the plant. That is important in relation to what we described earlier: skills and jobs. Many of the skills required in the construction phase will be transferable by their very nature, and quite different from the skills required during operation. What we would not want to do is to create opportunities for local people to acquire skills and to get jobs without thinking through how those skills and jobs might be dispersed over time. That is a significant challenge, but not one that we should duck. We need to think that through in terms of the benefits package that we devise and implement.

Another element on which I have placed particular emphasis in our discussion is the effect on people who will not directly benefit from the project in the ways I mentioned. A range of issues, including better transport, better community facilities, and so on, need to extend well beyond the immediate economic benefit that one might expect during construction and operation.

In line with the principles of localism—a subject dear to my heart—people in the community should determine what is needed and what will best serve their community. That is part of the paradigm I described. My Department has constituted a Hinkley strategic development forum in Somerset, as my hon. Friend the Member for Bridgwater and West Somerset knows. It comprises representatives from central Government, local authorities, the local enterprise partnership, the Chamber of Commerce and EDF to maximise local benefits from the development that is about to happen. That forum has just had its second meeting, and feedback has been extremely positive. The format seems to have been welcomed by the local community.

Such forums could be a suitable vehicle to help people with advice on the use of a community benefit package. Local authorities are involved in those forums, but there is an argument for involving other agencies in that way with the support of local authorities. We believe that all the district councils are working constructively to ensure that the whole area benefits from the development of Hinkley Point C. We see no reason why that would change if there were a community benefit package. Local authorities have the power to form partnerships to make that a reality for the long term.

We are clear that every package will have a particularity that reflects the circumstances of the area in which development takes place. Early this week I spoke on the Isle of Wight, which was wonderful, as you can imagine, Mr Walker—I am thinking not of my speech, but of the Isle of Wight, although both were wonderful—and I made the point that a developed capitalist economy tends to lead to the deadening effect of dull ubiquity. I want the packages to be characterised not by dull ubiquity but by the exciting particularity that is guaranteed by the strong involvement and shaping of them by local communities. They must be meaningful and provide some of the things I mentioned earlier: long-term economic stability for the area and recognition that the community is hosting infrastructure of national significance.

To pick up my hon. Friend’s point, packages should not be just an income boost for a single local authority. That would be quite wrong and counter-productive. Any community benefit package must be large enough to make a difference in the short term and have an immediate effect while promoting sustainable growth over a considerable time. Discussions have been going on for some time to put together proposals for a community benefit package that meets all the criteria of being meaningful, making a difference, managing to achieve a sustainable local economy, and having a lasting impact for generations with the aim of engaging the local community in the long term.

I will introduce proposals within the timetable agreed. I will do so to the House in the form of a statement, and I will of course ensure that my hon. Friend and the communities affected are informed. As a result of the representations that have been made in this debate, I have decided to write to all local authorities concerned and to ensure that there is an ongoing dialogue there as the proposals are made.

I recognise the point that the hon. Lady made that uncertainty is unhelpful. In any strategy, certainty is a prerequisite of confidence and there will not be commercial investment or social and cultural investment—investment of belief—among local communities unless we are very clear about our objectives and how we will meet them. I can tell the House that as a result of our debate, I have decided to meet the Economic Secretary to the Treasury today, with the aim of coming to an agreement shortly on the total value of the package. He will receive a text message from my Parliamentary Private Secretary and, knowing the diligence of the Economic Secretary, I am sure that he will be waiting for me when we finish the debate.

Progress has been made over the last few weeks and more detail will follow shortly. We are clear that communities deserve recognition and clarity on what that recognition will mean for them. As I have said, it will give me immense pleasure to provide that clarity in the very near future.

In conclusion—I know that there will be some disappointment that I am drawing my remarks to a close so speedily—much of the misunderstanding, or absence of understanding, around energy policy springs from the past excessive emphasis on cause, and the inadequate consideration of effect. We have talked too much about production and not enough about consumption, and there has been too much about supply and not enough about demand when discussing energy strategy. Part of the new approach that I have outlined is to put fresh emphasis on effect and on demand.

[Luciana Berger]

Will the Minister give way?

[Mr Hayes]

I am delighted to, even at this very late stage.

[Luciana Berger]

I have listened closely to the points that the Minister has made. Will we see in the forthcoming Bill dealing with electricity market reform, measures on demand reduction? As he will know, the Opposition raised serious concerns that the draft Bill contained nothing on demand reduction. Having listened to his contribution, I wonder whether what he has said will translate into a change in the Bill when it is introduced.

[Mr Hayes]

The hon. Lady makes a very good point, which was also made by the Select Committee on Energy and Climate Change when it scrutinised the draft Bill. We are in discussions on that issue, and the Department is drawing up that Bill, as she knows. The Secretary of State and I are both clear that demand reduction needs to be given greater emphasis. The hon. Lady, however, would not expect me to anticipate what will be in the Bill. It would certainly be inappropriate, and possibly even worse procedurally, to do so, Mr Walker. However, she can have my absolute assurance that demand reduction will be given an emphasis that it has not had previously. We have listened closely to the representations of the Select Committee and others, as well as the Opposition. Governments can learn from Oppositions—never quite as much as Oppositions can learn from Governments, but none the less, she has made a powerful point to which we will give further consideration.

To conclude the debate, we may shortly be in a position to clarify the community benefits package that my hon. Friend the Member for Bridgwater and West Somerset seeks with such vehemence, to articulate a new paradigm for dealing with major infrastructural investments in the area of energy, and to redress the balance in terms of the debate between supply and demand, and production and consumption. If so, I will then be able to live up to the description that has been made of me, as the people’s Minister for Energy.

Oral Answers to Questions

Debate between Luciana Berger and John Hayes

Monday 18th June 2012 Commons Chamber

[Mr Hayes]

The Secretary of State and the Under-Secretary of State for Education, the hon. Member for East Worthing and Shoreham (Tim Loughton), who has responsibility for children, are having a meeting this afternoon on just those matters, to ensure that our response is co-ordinated in the way the hon. Lady describes. It is fair to say that there is an issue about the different claims about the number of children who go missing and the need for a more consistent approach to how those records are maintained. I hear what she says and it will no doubt help to inform the discussions that will take place this afternoon—because we do not hesitate on these matters—between the Secretary of State and the Under-Secretary.

[Luciana Berger (Liverpool, Wavertree) (Lab/Co-op)]

6. What steps he is taking to improve the status and quality of the teaching profession.

Higher Education Policy

Debate between Luciana Berger and John Hayes

Wednesday 27th April 2011 Commons Chamber

[Mr Hayes]

My hon. Friend the Member for Havant referred to an interesting document that Labour has produced, “Why not a Pure Graduate Tax?”, which concludes:

“We have been unable to identify any other country with a graduate tax system along the lines described that could serve as an exemplar for how a pure graduate tax might work.”

I have good news! Experts in Labour central office have now found one. Ethiopia has a graduate tax, but it is thinking of ditching it, just as Labour has decided to take the idea on board.

As for the charge that variable fees will deter working-class students, we heard the hon. Member for Stoke-on-Trent Central (Tristram Hunt) speak with authority on the subject. I know that he is a close student of working-class culture—[Laughter.] I said merely that he was a student; he does study it. He and the hon. Member for Nottingham South (Lilian Greenwood) told us that fees would deter working-class students. When the right hon. Member for Kingston upon Hull West and Hessle (Alan Johnson) was a Minister, he introduced variable fees, saying:

“I reject the notion that working-class kids are more debt averse than youngsters from other backgrounds. I just reject it completely, absolutely completely.”

That was his view of the effect that variable fees would have on the participation of working-class students.

[Luciana Berger]

Has the Minister seen the research published today by High Fliers, which shows that 51% of existing final-year undergraduates said that they would not have gone to university if their tuition fees had been three times as high as they are now?

[Mr Hayes]

I would be the first to acknowledge that I have not seen that research, but I would be more than happy to look at it. I am a straightforward politician, as the hon. Lady knows, and I have to say to her that when fees were first introduced, I was one of the doubters. I wondered whether they would have the effect that has been articulated again today. However, the evidence is that they have not done so. They have not affected applications in the way that was predicted by some people, and she is on dangerous ground if she thinks that they will have that effect this time round.

It does not seem credible for the Opposition to prosecute the argument that students will be deterred from applying to university and that there will therefore not be enough of them, and simultaneously to argue that there will be too many applications and that the universities will be unable to fund sufficient places to meet the demand. The Opposition seem to be running two horses, neither of which is likely to reach the winning post.

Oral Answers to Questions

Debate between Luciana Berger and John Hayes

Thursday 17th February 2011 Commons Chamber

[Mr Hayes]

The right hon. Gentleman speaks of opportunity, but it was Baroness Thatcher who said that if your only opportunity is to be equal, you have no opportunity. What he and his colleagues left us with was a dull, egalitarian mediocrity. We are going to drive up standards and skills, and drive growth and prosperity.

[Luciana Berger (Liverpool, Wavertree) (Lab/Co-op)]

We just heard from the Minister that more needs to be done about apprenticeships. Indeed, he wrote to all hon. Members encouraging us to take on an apprentice in our offices. Why then are the Government removing the requirement for apprenticeship places on Government public investment programmes?

[Mr Hayes]

The work that we are doing on public sector apprenticeships, in this place and elsewhere, continues. Indeed, I met a shadow Minister—one of her parliamentary colleagues—to talk about apprenticeships and public procurement. The hon. Lady is right—we do need to drive public sector apprenticeships and we do need to lead by example.

Apprentices

Debate between Luciana Berger and John Hayes

Tuesday 15th February 2011 Ministerial Corrections

[Luciana Berger]

To ask the Secretary of State for Business, Innovation and Skills how many people commenced an apprenticeship in (a) 1997 and (b) May 2010.

[Official Report, 9 September 2010, Vol. 515, c. 671W.]

Letter of correction from Mr John Hayes:

An error has been identified in the answer given to the hon. Member for Liverpool, Wavertree (Luciana Berger) on 9 September 2010. The number given for people on apprenticeships in 1996/97 was incorrectly given as 75,000 when it should have been 65,000.

The full answer given was as follows:

[Mr Hayes]

The number of apprenticeships in 1996/97 was 75,000 last published in the Statistical First Release on the 24 October 2002, however these data were calculated on a different basis and therefore may not be directly comparable with later years.

Table 1 shows the number of apprenticeship starts for England from 2003/04 to 2008/09. 2003/04 is the earliest year for which comparable data are available and 2008/09 is the latest year for which full-year data are available.

Oral Answers to Questions

Debate between Luciana Berger and John Hayes

Thursday 8th July 2010 Commons Chamber

[Mr Hayes]

My hon. Friend makes an important point about progression. It is important to have a ladder of training opportunity, going from re-engagement of those who have been disengaged from education, training and employment through to apprenticeships, and then to higher level skills, too. We will certainly do that.

[Luciana Berger (Liverpool, Wavertree) (Lab/Co-op)]

Will the Secretary of State confirm whether he will go ahead with previous plans to introduce financial incentives of about £5,000 for people buying new electric vehicles?