Public Bodies Bill [HL]

Debate between Lord Whitty and Lord Hunt of Kings Heath

Monday 28th March 2011 Lords Chamber

[Lord Whitty]

My Lords, my comment this evening is basically: why is Passenger Focus still here in the Bill? As the noble Earl knows, Passenger Focus had the distinction of appearing in three schedules to start with, plus we had a generalised statement from BIS that it wished to bring all consumer bodies together as one body, probably Citizens Advice. Because the consultation on all that has been postponed, we do not yet know whether the Government are still so minded, although I suspect that the noble Earl’s department has seen off that proposal for the moment, so we are discussing Passenger Focus as a separate entity. In default of having a sensible rationalisation of consumer bodies, it is important that Passenger Focus remains.

When we removed Passenger Focus from Schedule 5, I received some assurances on the subject from the noble Earl, but this amendment relates to constitutional change in the body. As we have just heard from the noble Lord, Lord Henley, a lot of things could be done under the heading of constitutional change, so I would like some assurance from the noble Earl that the worst fears are unfounded. It was said that Passenger Focus would be reduced to its core role. I expressed concern at the time that that might mean that it would no longer be able to criticise the general conduct of the railway or bus companies, or indeed government policy, and would simply be reduced to a complaints organisation. I think that, on that occasion, the noble Earl said that that would not be the case, but the drastic reduction in its resources—by nearly 40 per cent—suggests that it will have to reduce substantially. If, in order to meet that very much reduced budget, it has to drop some functions, we should be told which functions the Government expect those will be.

If the inclusion of Passenger Focus in this schedule is simply aimed at its governance, I would need reassurance that that would not remove the regional base of its governance and its wide remit to go into the affairs and performance of individual train and bus companies. I hope that I can receive those assurances tonight, in which case we can have a very short debate on this item and welcome the fact that Passenger Focus will be affected by this Bill only to a minimum degree. However, I need those assurances. I beg to move.

[Lord Hunt of Kings Heath]

My Lords, perhaps I may briefly support my noble friend in saying that I hope that the noble Earl will be able to give the assurance that he requires. The problem with Schedule 3 is that, on the face of it, it gives considerable power to Ministers to alter the constitutional arrangements of bodies and offices. I take that to mean that, if the Government were unhappy with the performance of the board of such an organisation, they could make drastic changes in its governance arrangements by bringing an order before Parliament. The problem is that that power could also be used to remove members of the board who may be causing some disagreeableness to the Government. That is a matter of concern. Clearly, if these public bodies are not able to exercise their functions in a robust and independent way, they are unlikely to do their job effectively. This relates to all the bodies listed but I think that the question that my noble friend has raised about Passenger Focus is a fair one to put to the noble Earl, Lord Attlee. I hope that, specifically in regard to this body, the noble Earl will say on the record from the Dispatch Box that the changes envisaged to governance et cetera will only be minor.

Public Bodies Bill [HL]

Debate between Lord Whitty and Lord Hunt of Kings Heath

Wednesday 9th March 2011 Lords Chamber

[Lord Hunt of Kings Heath]

My Lords, I will move the amendment in the name of my noble friend Lord Whitty. Passenger Focus plays an important role in protecting the interests of Britain’s rail passengers, England’s bus passengers outside London, coach passengers on scheduled domestic services and tram passengers. It is important that this function is not undermined and it is not appropriate that Passenger Focus is included in the Bill. I am very happy that the noble Lord, Lord Taylor, is joining me in support of this important amendment. I beg to move.

[Lord Whitty]

My Lords, my noble friend did not realise that I had arrived from the airport to move the amendment. I, too, am grateful to the Minister and I congratulate him. This is the first time that a Minister in this Government has added their name to an amendment of mine on any piece of legislation. What I am about to say should not undermine my gratitude. However, I have to ask two questions.

First, where does this leave Passenger Focus, because it achieved the distinction of appearing under three different schedules to the Bill and it remains in Schedule 3, which we agreed at an earlier stage? The piece of paper given to us for our debate on Monday, had we reached the amendment then, indicated that a much reduced role is envisaged for Passenger Focus. The document states that it would concentrate on its,

“core role of protecting consumers”,

that there was “scope for significant savings”, and that the body would be working under a “significantly reduced budget”. The reference to the core role is slightly sinister, because it implies that the organisation will focus on the complaints function and therefore act in processing and improving that function, but that it will not be allowed to be more critical of the train or bus companies and, more particularly, the department’s overall transport policy as regards the rail or bus network. If that is the intention, it will neuter Passenger Focus considerably. I should like the noble Earl, Lord Attlee, who I assume will reply, to provide reassurance on that front.

My second question is on a wider front. The various existing consumer bodies are being dealt with differentially under this legislation. Some are to be abolished, some are to be merged, some are to have their functions transferred and some, given the abolition of Schedule 7, will be retained—presumably in their present form. Passenger Focus will be retained in a modified form. The Government’s original intent, for which I had some regard, was to rationalise the whole structure of consumer representation. Instead of that, the danger is that they will leave a bigger hotchpotch than the aggregate of previous legislation on consumer matters and weaken the statutory base of a number of consumer bodies.

As the Committee knows, I have an interest as a past chair of Consumer Focus. On the one hand, it appears that that body will be abolished, while on the other hand the Government say that they will transfer the functions to Citizens Advice. It was BIS’s original view that other bodies, including Passenger Focus and the Consumer Council for Water, should also be transferred to Citizens Advice. Whether or not that was a good idea, at least it was coherent. It seems now that we will end up on the consumer front with greater incoherence than the Government inherited and were determined to do something about. Not only is regulation likely to be more incoherent, but it is also likely to be substantially weaker, with fewer resources. Therefore, although I very much appreciate the Government’s support for the amendment, I have serious misgivings about their specific and general intentions as regards consumer protection.

--- Later in debate ---

[Lord Whitty]

In this amendment, I move away from the detailed consideration of individual bodies and their future to a more general principle. This relates to what happens to the staff of those bodies whose functions are transferred or merged. There is a clear-cut situation where, if bodies are abolished, although some of the bodies are Schedule 1, there has also been commitment by the Government to transfer the functions, duties or powers elsewhere and, therefore, the question of what happens to the staff who are carrying out those functions under the current arrangements does arise.

This amendment would make it clear that, in normal circumstances, the TUPE arrangements would apply as they would apply to mergers in both the private and the public sector, and across the private and the public sector where functions and duties are transferred. Under normal procedure concerning people’s entitlement to terms and conditions, including redundancy terms, pensions and other aspects of their employment, if the functions are moved into a receiving body, it would be for that receiving body to maintain both the continuity of service and the terms and conditions unless and until, either by collective agreement or by individual contract agreement, those terms are changed.

Because of the complexity of the bodies involved and the contractual terms which appear and have grown up in many of these bodies over time, it may not be all that clear, even to eminent employment lawyers, whether a TUPE applies or not. Even in the more simple past, when we were only dealing with one or two mergers of bodies or transfers of functions, it sometimes was not at all clear. The form of words here is almost exactly that which was included in the legislation in 2006 which set up the present Consumer Focus body—the National Consumer Council in legal terms—when we had the merger of the old National Consumer Council, Energywatch and Postwatch. The terms and conditions were preserved, albeit in some situations it was not entirely clear whether TUPE would apply or not.

In 2006 the regulations on TUPE came in. When Consumer Focus was created they were quite new, but similar forms of words have appeared in other legislation where there has been a merger or transfer of functions from one state body—NDPB or equivalent—to another. This Bill has a wholesale raft of such transfers. It does not have quite as many as it started out with but there are still quite a few left, and a few where it is not quite clear whether the transfer is occurring or not, and whether it is a function which normally comes under the TUPE regulations.

This amendment would make it clear, however, that if the function transfers or the duty and power transfers, the staff would go with them unless and until the receiving body decided it might wish to dispense with their services as the new employer. It is not up to the previous employer to declare them redundant until such a rationalisation has taken place by the receiving employer, which can happen more or less instantaneously in certain circumstances. The important point is that up until that point, the terms and conditions of the staff employed under the pre-existing bodies would be preserved.

This important point relates to quite a lot of staff, and there is quite a lot of uncertainty among the trade unions and staff bodies representing them. We need clarity on this and if the Government are unable to accept this form of words then, clearly, I am happy to discuss it with them. The principle needs to be established for all the bodies which remain within this Bill. I beg to move.

[Lord Hunt of Kings Heath]

My Lords, I would very much like to support my noble friend on this. It is timely to remember that thousands of people who work for the public bodies listed in this Bill are likely to be affected by its provisions. Many will lose their livelihoods; some will find their careers seriously damaged; some, as my noble friend Lord Whitty has said, will find themselves transferred to other employers. It is important that we recognise and acknowledge that those people have given dedicated service, in some cases for many years. Where they are transferring to another body, we must make the transition process as smooth as possible. That is clearly the intent behind my noble friend's amendment. It would ensure that, where a person is transferred to another body, TUPE will apply, with the implications and protections as described by my noble friend. I hope that the Minister will be able to provide the necessary assurances on that. The Government also need to take on board the point that my noble friend made about the complexity of the issue and the need for clarity, which is why his amendment deserves serious consideration.

[Lord Taylor of Holbeach]

I, too, am grateful to the noble Lord, Lord Whitty, for tabling the amendment, because it raises an important aspect of the reforms and allows the Committee to consider the impact of the Government's reform programme on the staff of the bodies affected. I take this opportunity to pay tribute to the work of the thousands of hard-working staff of public bodies across the country. Specifically, I put on record that our proposed reforms to public bodies are no reflection on the work of the staff.

I assure the Committee that the Government are working with the chairs and chief executives of public bodies and trade union representatives to ensure that necessary change is carried out as smoothly and fairly as possible. As the noble Lord said, that must be an important aspect of this operation. The Government have been diligent in acknowledging the needs of staff during the public bodies review programme, and we will continue to be so—for example, by exploring opportunities for redeployment where possible.

The Cabinet Office has been working closely with other departments since 2010 to ensure that the needs of staff are fully factored into the public bodies programme of work, particularly on the need to provide staff with clarity following reform decisions and the milestones along the route. The Cabinet Secretary has sent a message to departments on that very point. The Cabinet Office has also provided a checklist of considerations for departments which takes the needs of staff and stakeholders into account.

Those arrangements reflect a flexible approach that ensures that government departments can respond in the context of individual changes—based, of course, on the proper protections that are already enshrined in UK employment law. That is the right approach to support our public bodies’ staff. It also reflects the Cabinet Office statement of practice on staff transfers in the public sector. The guiding principles, as set out in the document state:

“The Government is committed to ensuring that the public sector is a good employer and a model contractor and client”.

The principles recognise that the:

“involvement, commitment and motivation of staff are vital for achieving smooth and seamless transition during such organisational change”.

On the specifics of the amendment, I should like to inform the Committee why the Government believe that the blanket application of TUPE is not appropriate. TUPE, and the European law which underpins it, was designed to protect staff where the business for which they worked, or the services to which they were assigned, would be carried out by a different organisation. Staff retain their jobs and conditions, and the new employer steps into the shoes of the old one. The definition of relevant transfer under TUPE is broad and will cover most transfer situations.

However, Clause 23 already provides the mechanism for equivalent protection to be confirmed in non-TUPE situations where that is appropriate. That is underpinned by the Cabinet Office statement of practice on staff transfers, to which I have already referred, which provides that the TUPE principles should generally be followed through a transfer scheme which addresses the imperatives of the particular transfer.

The blanket application of TUPE to all transfers conducted pursuant to this Bill seems likely to lead to inefficiencies and unintended consequences. For example, there may be circumstances where a body following an order made under this Bill is carrying out functions which have significantly altered and which require different skills and resources, with the result that there is no relevant transfer for TUPE purposes. If TUPE were nevertheless to be applied, staff would be transferred to the new body by operation of law, only to be potentially made redundant by the transferee. This would involve extra work and unnecessary expense and delay with no benefit to anyone, increasing uncertainty for staff and possibly disruptive relocation.

I appreciate the concern of the noble Lord, Lord Whitty, and I can assure him that the Government will continue to have a positive approach to TUPE regulations where they properly apply, and seek to make appropriate provision where this is not the case. I hope that, in the light of the assurances I have given, he will feel free to withdraw his amendment.

Academies Bill [HL]

Debate between Lord Whitty and Lord Hunt of Kings Heath

Wednesday 7th July 2010 Lords Chamber

[Lord Whitty]

I should point out by way of clarification, and to save the Minister a little time and effort, that Amendment 49 in my name is in this group. In reality, it should not have been in this group; it should have been grouped with Amendment 51. I shall not therefore take any time in speaking to it now and the Minister need take no time in replying. I do not promise to be so helpful in my later interventions.

[Lord Hunt of Kings Heath]

My Lords, I associate myself with the noble Baroness, Lady Walmsley, on Amendment 6. Academies are subject to the same statutory framework in respect of temporary and permanent exclusions as all other state-funded schools, which is welcome. We know that academies have had higher rates of exclusion than other state-funded schools and it is clear that there would be an impact on neighbouring schools if academies in general excluded more pupils but then did not take excluded pupils from elsewhere in the education area.

There are reasons for this in the current academy scheme, where often highly challenging schools were converted into academies and discipline was frequently a top priority. Where there is a large number of academies, it is important that they take their fair share of excluded pupils.

In government, we established a requirement on all schools, including academies, to participate in behaviour and attendance partnerships that involve other schools and have access to support from other children’s services. This was based on a clear understanding of the potential benefits of collaboration between schools and local authorities in the promotion of good pupil behaviour. I can see nothing in the Bill that links the new academies with a requirement to participate in behaviour partnerships. I hope that the Minister can assure us that academies will continue to do so.

I was very much involved in the establishment of NHS foundation trusts and there are clear parallels with academies. Foundation trusts were set up in the context of a statutory duty of partnership. There was a clear recognition of that in the National Health Service, whatever role different organisations played. NHS foundation trusts had a membership and a governing body, so those institutions were standing on their own two feet more than other parts of the National Health Service. Nevertheless, they were still part of the NHS. A duty was laid on them to work with others. It is a pity in some ways that we do not have a similar understanding that there should be a duty of partnership here. The noble Baroness, Lady Walmsley, raises those issues in her group of amendments and we look forward to a constructive reply from the Minister.