Petroleum Licensing (Exploration and Production) (Landward Areas) (Amendment) (England and Wales) Regulations 2016

Lord Walney Excerpts

Wednesday 1st March 2017 General Committees

[Jesse Norman]

I am grateful to the hon. Lady for anticipating the point in my speech at which I will address the questions. Let me finish, if I may, the process of not merely introducing the importance of shale gas but touching on the way in which the regulations have been structured and why that is so.

As I said, the regulations serve to strengthen the protections already in place for protected areas and to extend special protection to sensitive areas. The surface restrictions apply to the same areas detailed in the protected areas regulations as well as sites of special scientific interest and Ramsar and Natura 2000 sites. That is further evidence of the Government’s recognition of the importance of protecting key areas around the country. I stress that even outside those areas—the hon. Member for Southampton, Test recognised this point—a company looking to develop shale gas will still need to obtain all the necessary permissions, including planning and environmental permits, before hydraulic fracturing can be carried out. That is in addition to the requirements of the regulations. As part of the licence, permission and permit procedures, the environmental impact of operations and any risks associated with them are assessed by regulators and through the planning system on a case-by-case basis.

All oil and gas sites need permits under the Environmental Permitting (England and Wales) Regulations 2010 as well as planning permission from the relevant planning authority. The national planning policy framework and supporting practice guidance clearly state that, in respect of minerals such as shale oil and gas, new development should be appropriate for its location. If the risks of a proposed shale activity are deemed unacceptable, the environmental regulators will simply not allow that activity to go ahead, irrespective of the area involved.

[John Woodcock (Barrow and Furness) (Lab/Co-op)]

I thank the Minister for giving way, and please accept my apologies, Mr Gray, for having come in a few minutes late. I am listening carefully to the Minister’s considered speech. I am trying to get to the nub of the issue for my constituents. Does the promise made that there would be categorically no fracking in the Lake District national park still stand?

[Jesse Norman]

The Government’s position remains unchanged that there should be no surface fracturing within those protected areas. That is the question raised at present. Of course it is possible to fracture from outside national parks beneath them, 1,200 metres below the earth, which is 800 metres below the normal lowest levels of any water sites. That is at least 1,200 metres below the surface of the national park. That is the form of the protection.

--- Later in debate ---

[Jesse Norman]

I think I have been perfectly clear about the regulations and what the rules suggest. The hon. Member for Southampton, Test, brought a set of suggestions, or what he regards as facts or other evidence. I am more than happy for my officials to review that information, and to write to my right hon. Friend the Member for Arundel and South Downs to clarify the matter. I cannot comment on it now because it has just been presented to the Committee, but I am content and comfortable with writing to my right hon. Friend to give him the necessary reassurance after the debate.

[John Woodcock]

rose—

[Jesse Norman]

I have given way in extenso.

[Dr Whitehead]

I think it is evident from our exchanges this morning that the central question about drilling from wells and fracking from the ground underneath them is this: can that take place using less than 10,000 cubic metres of water? As I have set out for the Committee—not as my contention, but in a series of facts—yes, it can. It happens in the United States, not just occasionally, but to a very substantial extent—indeed, in just under half of all fracking operations. Everybody in the United States regards those as real fracking operations, with real wells drilled and real volumes of water involved.

We are not talking about whether fracking is safe or a boon to the economy. We are talking about the fact that Ministers have given apparently cast-iron assurances that fracking will not take place in areas of outstanding natural beauty, national parks or sites of special scientific interest, but the Minister has not given any assurances to that effect today, and it is quite evident, not just from external sources but from the wording of the SI, that there is no such protection in legislation. The Minister said that we should not get too hung up on nomenclature, but we absolutely should, because legislation is all about getting it right. It is about getting assurances in writing, so that people know that what Ministers say is backed up by legislation from this House.

[John Woodcock]

My hon. Friend has made a compelling case today, which has clearly raised new questions for Government Members. I credit the Minister for being honest with hon. Members about not having the answers, and for saying that he is prepared to write to the right hon. Member for Arundel and South Downs. However, does the shadow Minister agree that, in the circumstances, the sensible thing would be to pause this process and resume it when we have the right assurances and the proper facts to enable us to decide whether to proceed?

[Dr Whitehead]

My hon. Friend makes an important point. Writing to the right hon. Member for Arundel and South Downs and to the hon. Member for The Cotswolds after we have voted on this legislation today will have no weight at all and will provide no assurances whatever. Either the legislation protects national parks and areas of outstanding national beauty from fracking and drilling on the surface—not lateral drilling, but wells in pads drilled within the curtilage of the parks—or it does not. If it does not, no amount of writing to hon. Members to assure them that it does will alter that.

A strong case has been made this morning. I make the caveat that we do not know for certain whether every well drilled in the United Kingdom will use more than 10,000 cubic metres of water; we can merely refer to the evidence from the United States, which is that a lot do and a lot do not. My hon. Friend the Member for Newport West points out that the UK’s geology is very different from that of the United States. It may be that, just as there are different circumstances—I pointed those out in my evidence to the Committee, as it were—in different states of the US, different amounts of water are used in different geological circumstances. Given the difficult geology in the UK, it may be that quite a lot of water would be used. It may be that Bowland shale and Wealden shale need different amounts of water for fracking.

It will be extremely difficult—the Minister fell on this difficulty—to walk out of this room assured that there will be no fracking in national parks and sites of special scientific interest as a result of the regulations. If that is what we believe, we should not allow the SI to proceed. That is not to say that the Minister is not sincere and clear in his contention that there is no intention to enable fracking to take place in national parks and SSSIs, but evidently there is a dissonance between what the Minister says and what the legislation says.