Local Government Bill [HL]

Lord Tyler Excerpts

Wednesday 28th July 2010 Lords Chamber

This amendment lays open the possibility that, down the line, future bids for unitary status may be considered with an open mind and in a non-party way by the Secretary of State and it asks that those criteria be published. If we choose, we can rebuild that party-blind consensus to support the localism of local government to which the coalition gave such support in their post-election manifesto. However, you cannot do that while supporting a Bill like this and rejecting an amendment like this. That is to refuse to accept unitary structures in the future for cities such as Norwich and Exeter, which on every count—value for money, clarity of services and accountability to the electorate—offer cheaper and better services for residents. You cannot do that and then refuse these amendments.

[Lord Tyler]

My Lords, I had not intended to participate in this debate, but I am moved by the eloquence of the Howarth-Hollis panegyric in favour of county unitary status, as that seems to be the sheer thread of their argument: unitary authorities—county unitary authorities, rather than city unitary authorities—avoid the duplication that has been referred to at such length.

[Baroness Hollis of Heigham]

My Lords, let me clarify one point. I spoke of unitary authorities, especially for cities. I do not have a particular commitment to what may happen in very large rural counties. I repeatedly made the point that I was talking about city services.

[Lord Tyler]

But the argument advanced by the noble Baroness and the noble Lord was much more applicable to counties.

I was a member of Devon County Council in the long-distant past, when I was very young—I was 22. I then had the experience of seeing the County Borough of Torbay taken out of Devon. It was disastrous both for Torbay and for Devon. More recent experience that I have had would be more applicable and relevant to this debate. As a member of the board of the Devon and Cornwall Business Council until relatively recently, I was struck by the extent to which businesspeople in Exeter saw the value in the long term of a unitary authority for the whole county of Devon because Exeter is the county town of Devon. It is the natural centre, culturally, socially and economically, and has an amazing effect on the whole network of relationships in Devon. I speak not from personal experience of Norwich, but I think that my noble friends from that area would agree that it is similar in terms of being the county town of Norfolk. That may not be the case with other unitary authorities in other parts of the country.

What I am absolutely clear about is that, in the terms set out by the noble Lord, Lord McKenzie, we are where we are. To reopen the issue at this stage as the duet have encouraged us to do would be absurd, entirely inappropriate and against the decision taken by this House just a few weeks ago. Certainly, it would be against the mandate given to both parties in the coalition just a few short weeks ago.

There is a case for more unitary authorities. It was advanced extensively and deliberately for the county of Cornwall in recent months and I think that it will prove a success, but that was in different economic circumstances. To reopen this issue in the terms that the noble two over the way have suggested, at this stage, with this particular amendment, seems to me totally irrelevant and to show disrespect for the procedures of this House. It may be that in future there will be another case for looking again at local government in Devon and Norfolk. If so, we would need to look at the relative economics of a unitary authority for the whole of those counties—I am sure that this applies for the business communities in both counties—rather than simply reopening the issue of the status of Norwich and Exeter. But that is for the future. As far as today, this Bill and these amendments are concerned, I think that we should move on.

[Lord Burnett]

My Lords, I am delighted to follow my noble friend Lord Tyler, who was a very distinguished Member of Parliament for North Cornwall. It was a state secret, which I can now reveal, that in fact he was born in Devon, albeit very close to the River Tamar. I declare that I live in Devon and own residential and agricultural property in Devon and residential property in Exeter, where my law firm has an office. Most of us agree with the principle of unitary councils, but we do not agree with the proposals that are now being debated. We do not agree with a unitary Exeter. It is not only people from this side that are saying that; every independent outfit that has looked at the matter has said the same. The Boundary Committee, some years ago, during the tenure of office of the previous Government, made it quite clear that a unitary Exeter was unaffordable and did not meet the Government’s criteria. The courts have thrown out the previous Government’s proposals. This is a huge distraction and it is time to let matters proceed and let this Bill through as fast as reasonably possible.