Local Government Bill [HL]

Lord Burnett Excerpts

Wednesday 28th July 2010 Lords Chamber

[Lord Tyler]

But the argument advanced by the noble Baroness and the noble Lord was much more applicable to counties.

I was a member of Devon County Council in the long-distant past, when I was very young—I was 22. I then had the experience of seeing the County Borough of Torbay taken out of Devon. It was disastrous both for Torbay and for Devon. More recent experience that I have had would be more applicable and relevant to this debate. As a member of the board of the Devon and Cornwall Business Council until relatively recently, I was struck by the extent to which businesspeople in Exeter saw the value in the long term of a unitary authority for the whole county of Devon because Exeter is the county town of Devon. It is the natural centre, culturally, socially and economically, and has an amazing effect on the whole network of relationships in Devon. I speak not from personal experience of Norwich, but I think that my noble friends from that area would agree that it is similar in terms of being the county town of Norfolk. That may not be the case with other unitary authorities in other parts of the country.

What I am absolutely clear about is that, in the terms set out by the noble Lord, Lord McKenzie, we are where we are. To reopen the issue at this stage as the duet have encouraged us to do would be absurd, entirely inappropriate and against the decision taken by this House just a few weeks ago. Certainly, it would be against the mandate given to both parties in the coalition just a few short weeks ago.

There is a case for more unitary authorities. It was advanced extensively and deliberately for the county of Cornwall in recent months and I think that it will prove a success, but that was in different economic circumstances. To reopen this issue in the terms that the noble two over the way have suggested, at this stage, with this particular amendment, seems to me totally irrelevant and to show disrespect for the procedures of this House. It may be that in future there will be another case for looking again at local government in Devon and Norfolk. If so, we would need to look at the relative economics of a unitary authority for the whole of those counties—I am sure that this applies for the business communities in both counties—rather than simply reopening the issue of the status of Norwich and Exeter. But that is for the future. As far as today, this Bill and these amendments are concerned, I think that we should move on.

[Lord Burnett]

My Lords, I am delighted to follow my noble friend Lord Tyler, who was a very distinguished Member of Parliament for North Cornwall. It was a state secret, which I can now reveal, that in fact he was born in Devon, albeit very close to the River Tamar. I declare that I live in Devon and own residential and agricultural property in Devon and residential property in Exeter, where my law firm has an office. Most of us agree with the principle of unitary councils, but we do not agree with the proposals that are now being debated. We do not agree with a unitary Exeter. It is not only people from this side that are saying that; every independent outfit that has looked at the matter has said the same. The Boundary Committee, some years ago, during the tenure of office of the previous Government, made it quite clear that a unitary Exeter was unaffordable and did not meet the Government’s criteria. The courts have thrown out the previous Government’s proposals. This is a huge distraction and it is time to let matters proceed and let this Bill through as fast as reasonably possible.

[Lord Howarth of Newport]

Does the noble Lord regard it as significant that in no fewer than four opinion polls held in Exeter, by majorities of two to one the people of Exeter said that they wanted a unitary Exeter. Is that of no account to him?

[Lord Burnett]

What is most of account to me is the result of the last general election, in which the majority of the Member of Parliament for Exeter, having had the benefit of a Boundary Commission change and a far more favourable electorate, went down very considerably indeed. If my memory serves me right, the people of Norwich actually threw out their two Labour Members of Parliament. That is—

[Lord Howarth of Newport]

My Lords—

[Lord Burnett]

No, I am not giving way any more—the noble Lord has had his say. This is a distraction and a huge waste of money. We know the duplication that will occur and we know that economies of scale will be lost. Let us proceed with the Bill.

[Lord Grocott]

My Lords, having listened carefully to this debate, I am struck by two things. The first is that no one on the opposite Benches, especially not the three Lib Dem speakers, have in any sense argued in principle for a two-tier system. They have all said in varying ways that they support unitary local government but not at this moment, in these particular local authorities or at this time in the development of our economy. In principle, though, they all seem to be in favour of unitary local government; if they are not, no doubt they will intervene on me. I think that that is also the Minister’s position, although she will be speaking in a moment or two. The arguments against are ones of pragmatism, relevant to the details of the moment.

The other thing that has been striking is that this has been a theoretical debate. There has been no reference whatever to what has actually happened to those local authorities that took advantage of the changes made by the Conservative Government prior to 1997. I pay tribute to that Government again, as I did at Second Reading. I am enormously grateful to them for giving Telford unitary local government. That was done properly through consultation. Ministers discussed it with local MPs, as Ministers should. This is why I say—I did not think that I would get the opportunity to quote Nye Bevan in relation to this amendment, but it is the obvious piece of advice—“Don’t look in the crystal ball when you can read the history book”. That Conservative Government, to their credit, gave unitary local government to a large number of towns and cities, including Telford, as I said, which did not have the benefit that my noble friend referred to of having been a unitary local authority in the past. In that respect, it was a much bigger experiment in Telford than anywhere else and it has been a resounding success.

If the door is now being closed to future applications for unitary local government, I appeal to the Government to look at the record to check those local authorities that were given unitary status by the previous Government to find out where in fact costs have escalated, a risk that a number of speakers have suggested, and to see whether people there now regret the decision that was made. The noble Lord, Lord Tyler, referred to Torbay. Obviously I do not know that area, so I am not trying to contest his evidence, but I would be interested to know, given that he described Torbay unitary authority as a failure, whether the people of Torbay are now petitioning to re-establish a two-tier system in Torbay.

In my experience, all the evidence—from one town in one particular part of the country—is that, while there was strong opposition from the county to the establishment of unitary local government, as you would expect, the experience has been successful. The people of Telford are proud of the local authority, which has had both parties in control of it—there have been both Labour and Conservative administrations, so I am not being partisan when I say this—and there was all-party support for the application in the first place. This, together with all the other local authorities that have achieved unitary status, is valuable evidence that should be looked at before the Government shut the door on the possibility of any other local authority that wants the benefit of unitary local government achieving it.

I appeal to the Government. I can see no reason why they would want to object to the amendment; it simply leaves doors open for the future. Even if they are determined to object to it, surely it is reasonable for me and others to ask them not to. It was, after all, a Conservative Government who established these local authorities. I, a dyed-in-the-wool several-generation supporter of the Labour Party, am saying that that was a good decision. What is more, I am saying that the evidence of the past 12 or 15 years is that it was a good decision and the Conservative Government were right to do it, as we were right to petition for it. Please do not close the door and please look in the history books.