Armed Forces (Service Complaints and Financial Assistance) Bill [HL]

Debate between Lord Thomas of Gresford and Earl Attlee

Wednesday 9th July 2014 Lords Chamber

[Lord Thomas of Gresford]

As someone else who is not in the Armed Forces, I point out that there is no point in giving to the Service Complaints Ombudsman the powers set out in new Section 340J of requiring a person to provide documents and other information unless there is some sanction. All that new Section 340K does is to put into the Bill the normal sanction that arises in these cases. I draw to the attention of those who have tabled the amendment that the measure does not refer to service personnel but to “a person”. That person could be a civil servant in the Ministry of Defence or a person who has nothing to do with the Armed Forces at all but just happens to have witnessed a particular event, and whose information as a civilian witness would be very helpful to the ombudsman in determining precisely what has gone on. If you are going to give the ombudsman the powers to call for papers and witnesses, as one rightly should, there has to be a sanction attached.

[Earl Attlee (Con)]

My Lords, I remind the Committee of my interest as I am still a serving TA officer, albeit not very active these days. This is the only area of concern that I have with the Bill and I urge my noble friend the Minister to pay very careful attention to it.

I certainly do not regard this as a probing amendment. I do not understand why the ombudsman would not be able to ask the Secretary of State to get on to the chain of command to get the documents, or whatever information is required, released. The Service Complaints Commissioner made it quite clear to us in a recent meeting, for which we were grateful, that she was perfectly happy as regards her access to Ministers. As the noble and gallant Lord said, Ministers can direct the chain of command to release the information. However, a problem could arise with these arrangements if compliance with the ombudsman’s request interfered with current operations to some extent, especially if staff effort had to be diverted from current operations to meet the ombudsman’s request. I hope that my noble friend can meet the concerns of noble and gallant Lords in this regard. I agree with the argument made by my noble friend Lord Deben. It is fine to make legislation consistent provided that no adverse implications can arise from that. I believe that could be the case if this provision is included in the Bill.

Wales: Commission on Devolution in Wales

Debate between Lord Thomas of Gresford and Earl Attlee

Monday 18th November 2013 Lords Chamber

[Lord Touhig (Lab)]

My Lords—

[Earl Attlee]

My Lords, we have not had a Lib Dem spokesman yet.

[Lord Thomas of Gresford]

My Lords, it is all very well saying that you are going to vote yes for a referendum. Would my noble friend the Minister be good enough to say who is going to frame the question which is to be put to the Welsh people? It has been noticeable that the First Minister, Mr Carwyn Jones, has not been overanxious to commit himself to timing for a referendum. Can we take it that the legislation will ensure that a referendum will be held and will not be deferred until some replacement for the Barnett formula has been found? In the 13 years of the previous Labour Government, they were unable to do that, despite all the pleas that were put to them at that time. Will my noble friend confirm that this referendum will go ahead with a proper question, within a reasonable time and with the Welsh Assembly having the power to determine precisely when?

Crime and Courts Bill [HL]

Debate between Lord Thomas of Gresford and Earl Attlee

Monday 18th June 2012 Lords Chamber

[Lord Thomas of Gresford]

I speak in support of this amendment. When I looked at it, I thought that I would not advise anybody to become a special in the National Crime Agency as not only do you not get paid but even if you are injured or killed in the course of your employment as a special, you get nothing other than compensation for salary. Therefore, if you are not a salaried person—for example, if you are self-employed—you get nothing. You get nothing for the injury itself. Presumably, the Government have in mind that you would sue somebody, whether it is themselves or the criminal concerned who caused the injury or death. Do they have in mind that a person should go to the Criminal Injuries Compensation Board to recover compensation? Putting in compensation for salary is so limiting that there must be some purpose behind that wording. I look forward to hearing it.

[Earl Attlee]

My Lords, I am grateful to my noble friend for moving her amendment. It is, of course, important that the National Crime Agency is able adequately to provide for the rare and very sad occasions when an NCA special is injured or killed in the line of duty. I would like to point out that when I joined the TA I did not know that I was going to be paid. I suddenly started receiving giro cheques when I was at school which were double the recommended term’s pocket money. I spent about 18 years in the TA as a junior NCO. If, sadly, I had been injured, I would have expected that a war pension would be paid on the basis of my rank, which stayed very junior for the first 18 years. Given the different status of NCA specials within the agency, the Bill expressly provides for the NCA to be able to pay sums by way of compensation for loss of salary in such an event. The details of that scheme will need to be drawn up over the coming months.

I suspect my noble friend will find that the inverse speaking time law applies to this amendment as well. She questioned whether the compensation should be limited to loss of salary alone. That is a fair question. An NCA special injured in the line of duty could, I accept, suffer other financial loss. If my noble friend would agree to withdraw her amendment, I should be happy to consider this point in more detail over the summer. At this stage, I cannot commit to bringing forward a government amendment on Report but I can certainly assure her that we will carefully consider the points she has raised and let her know the outcome of that consideration in advance of the next stage.