Parliament: Elected House of Lords

Lord Taylor of Holbeach Excerpts

Wednesday 10th November 2010 Lords Chamber

[Lord Taylor of Holbeach]

My Lords, I am grateful to the noble Lord, Lord Grocott, for bringing forward this short debate and to other noble Lords who have spoken this afternoon. We appear to be beginning a series of these rapid-fire debates. Brief the contributions may have to be in accordance with the requirements in the Companion, but that does not lessen the quality or, indeed, the value of the debate.

The Government value highly the views of your Lordships on the implications of reform of this House. This afternoon’s debate has concentrated on one aspect of the reform—the relationship between the two Houses—and I am very pleased that the noble Lord, Lord Grocott, has given us the opportunity to respond.

We recognise that this House has an important role, distinctive from that of the other place. I confirmed the Government’s view of the House’s role on 11 October, in response to a similar Question for Short Debate tabled by the noble Lord, Lord Hunt of Kings Heath. This is, and we intend that it will remain, a scrutinising and revising Chamber, holding the Government of the day to account.

Many noble Lords—I should probably change my notes to read “most noble Lords”—took the opportunity once again to question the Government’s case for a wholly or mainly elected reformed second Chamber. However, this Government are committed to reform and I do not want to rehearse the arguments about that today. Those who make the laws must be democratically legitimate, and legitimacy must come from a significant element of election to provide a direct link between those who make legislation and those who must live by it.

The right reverend prelate the Bishop of Bath and Wells asked whether we can afford such a change. The Government will of course carefully consider the costs of reforming the House of Lords. We believe that it is worth paying more for a legitimate second Chamber and we are still considering the size of a reformed second Chamber—an issue that will determine the overall cost of such a Chamber.

The Government recognise that their proposals for a wholly or mainly elected second Chamber will have implications for the relationship between the two Houses. I assure noble Lords that this is an issue that the Government and the cross-party committee are taking seriously. The Government are mindful that their plans for reform must allow the second Chamber to maintain its complementary role relative to the other place. The second Chamber must become neither a competitor to the other place nor a replica of it—a point reiterated by a number of noble Lords. Currently, the primacy of the other place does not rest solely on the fact that it is an elected Chamber while this House is not; it also rests in the Parliament Acts and in the financial privilege of the House of Commons—a matter to which I do not think any noble Lord referred. The Prime Minister and most senior Ministers are also drawn from the other place.

Most noble Lords have suggested that democratic legitimacy will embolden the second Chamber to act to the limit of its powers. However, the Government are clear that the other place should continue to remain the primary Chamber. Many noble Lords referred to the report of the Joint Committee on Conventions, which considered the practicality of codifying the key conventions on the relationship between the two Houses of Parliament. That committee concluded that, if this House were elected, its relationship with the other place would inevitably be called into question. The noble Lord, Lord Brooke of Alverthorpe, asked me whether work was already beginning on the codification of conventions. I believe that that would be putting the cart before the horse in the sense that we need to see the horse—the draft Bill—before we are able to debate in detail the codification of the conventions and how they might apply to a reformed House.

The Joint Committee also concluded that, should any firm proposals come forward to change the composition of the House of Lords, the conventions of the two Houses would have to be examined again. I can reassure noble Lords that the cross-party committee is giving careful consideration to the issue of the powers of the reformed second Chamber and the relationship between the two Houses, including the conventions.

The noble Lord, Lord Grocott, raised two matters that are fundamental to the conventions. He asked whether questions of votes of confidence had been considered by the Government. I can assure him that the cross-party committee will consider this type of issue in its deliberations. He also asked about debates on treaties and the declaration of war. These matters are for the committee to consider and it will no doubt consider them and report on its conclusions with the draft Bill. However, we have only one member of that committee present—the noble Baroness, Lady Royall of Blaisdon. She has given us as much detail as she could on the committee’s progress. I am not privy to its detailed discussions, nor should I be.

[Earl Ferrers]

My Lords, could I interrupt my noble friend? I was following what he was saying and I wanted to get it absolutely right because I could not believe what I heard. Is he saying that the Government are in favour of a fully elected House of Lords?

[Lord Taylor of Holbeach]

No, a mainly elected House of Lords is the phraseology that I think—and hope—that I have used, because that is the Government’s position. It may well be that the draft Bill will allow for the retention of unelected Members on an appointed basis. We know that the likelihood is that there will be a long transition period during which a large percentage of the existing House of Lords will remain to work alongside elected Members. That is an important aspect of House of Lords reform, to which we have not given full consideration in this debate but to which I am sure, when it comes to the draft Bill, we will probably find ourselves giving considerable thought.

As I said, there will be a process of transition. It will be a long process and it is likely to mean that the relationship between the two Houses, including the conventions, will develop over the time of transition. This is not big bang; we are talking about evolution. This House will have the opportunity to discuss these issues during pre-legislative scrutiny of the draft Bill. The Government hope that pre-legislative scrutiny will be carried out by a Joint Committee of both Houses.

The cross-party committee is also considering other issues that will reinforce the differences between the two Chambers. The Government’s proposal for a proportional electoral system will set up a different relationship between voter and representative in the second Chamber compared with the link between a constituent and an MP. As set out in the coalition agreement, the cross-party committee is likely to advocate single, long terms of office for Members of the reformed second Chamber. This again would reinforce the differences between the two Chambers. Of course, the House will retain control over its affairs and, in particular, its committee system and it will be for both Houses to agree the degree to which they work jointly.

Many noble Lords have argued that the present House of Lords has expertise and experience to a degree that sets it apart from the other place and which makes it especially qualified to scrutinise and improve the legislation from the other place. This, they say, will be lost as a result of reform. The Government do not accept that the present means of joining this House are the only ways of securing expertise and experience. Elected Members are capable of possessing and drawing on their own experience. Moreover, the House already has in place a widely respected committee system that allows it to call on the evidence of outside experts.

The Government believe that the British people must be allowed a say in who makes the laws to which they are subject and that the character and design of the political institutions of this country should reflect the society that they serve. We consider that this House must be constituted on a more democratic basis. We recognise the implications for the relationship between the two Houses and we will consider these implications carefully.

[Lord Tyler]

My Lords, I wonder whether the noble Lord would confirm that it is the Government’s view that it would be better for one Joint Committee both to undertake pre-legislative scrutiny of the Bill and to consider the relationship between the two Houses, rather than—as I understand the noble Baroness, Lady Royall, has suggested—for a separate Joint Committee to look at that issue. Would it not be better that that issue is looked at comprehensively by one Joint Committee in pre-legislative scrutiny over the full period to the Queen’s Speech in 2012 rather than that two exercises should act separately?

[Lord Taylor of Holbeach]

I thank my noble friend for that interruption. I think that I said earlier that the Government have it in mind that there should be a Joint Committee of both Houses, but in the end it is up to Parliament to decide how it scrutinises this legislation. The Government and the committee are accountable to Parliament and I have no doubt that there will be many debates on any draft Bill that is produced early in the new year.

[Lord Wills]

Will the noble Lord confirm when in the new year this draft Bill will appear? Will it be in the first half of the year or the second half of the year?

[Lord Taylor of Holbeach]

Early in the new year, but—

[Noble Lords]

Which new year?

--- Later in debate ---

[Lord Taylor of Holbeach]

The new year that is yet to come. I have been advised that early in the new year is the likely time of arrival. The noble Baroness, Lady Royall of Blaisdon, no doubt has a better idea than I have on the timing. She is shaking her head, so I suggest that the authority that I have in giving the House the timing is as good as we can have for today. However, we are engaged in a long process—I can hear my noble friend the Leader of the House by my side saying exactly that, as I think I said last time. We are engaged in a long process with much debate, and much of the detail—the noble Lord, Lord Brooke, rightly reminded the House of the conventions and their codification—is very much further down the track, given the type of reform that the committee is likely to bring forward.

I believe that I was saying that the House should be constituted on a more democratic basis. We recognise the implications for the relationship between the two Houses and we will consider them carefully. The Government and the cross-party committee will be mindful of the House’s view as expressed in this and previous debates. A draft Bill will be brought forward early in the new year, which will allow all sides to examine and discuss in greater detail the Government’s plans for reform.

I am sorry that I have not been able to answer or even refer to all noble Lords who have spoken. The free expression of opinion demonstrates the challenge that there will be for those of us who are charged with the task of presenting reform to this House. We welcome debates of this nature in preparing us for the task ahead. It has been a valuable and thought-provoking debate and I am grateful for your Lordships’ contributions.