Childcare Bill [HL]

Lord Sutherland of Houndwood Excerpts

Wednesday 14th October 2015 Lords Chamber

I think I have said enough to make it clear that I believe that a wise Government acting in the general interest of the sector would delay. In the absence of such a decision, the House should support the sunset clause. As the noble Baroness, Lady Pinnock, says, this does not create delay. This policy will not be introduced until 2017. What will create delay is a dog’s dinner of a policy confusing and frightening the sector into withdrawing services so that fewer people rather than more are able to access them.

[Lord Sutherland of Houndwood (CB)]

My Lords, I welcome the progress that has been made during the Recess and the various meetings the Minster has had, not least yesterday’s briefing session, which I think all of us present found useful and informative. It did not give us all the answers that we want. I shall come back to that in a moment.

I also welcome the report of the Delegated Powers and Regulatory Reform Committee. It properly criticised the procedure we are going through, which is not ideal and is certainly not perfect. The question is whether it should be continued because the benefits will be significant, or whether it should be halted. I do not accept that this would not involve delay. It is important for the health of this Bill and its implementation that we proceed with further analysis, and almost more importantly, the pilot studies. It is only through pilots that we shall begin to see where the real practical difficulties arise, many of which have already been mentioned by my colleagues on the other Benches. The pilots have to take these points on board and test the adequacy of the proposals.

As I said, I welcome yesterday’s briefing. From the discussion, I saw a new capacity—not willingness, but capacity—for flexibility in the Government’s response. The Government will have to exercise every jot and tittle of that flexibility in responding to the comments that are made and the views that are shared across this House. The other view we share is that we want this Bill to be passed. We want action.

The difficulty with the amendment is not the demand for a review. The review is under way and we have to get going further with it, and we had a helpful and professional briefing yesterday. However, the amendment’s second demand is that a sustainable funding solution be presented before moving to the next stage. Politics is the art of the possible. That is not possible. It can come only after the funding review across the whole of government has taken place. I do not want to make much of this at the moment, but I note in parentheses the view of the Select Committee that hard choices would have to be made. I have yet to see recognition of that from the Government, but that is a consequence we shall see when the final financial package is revealed.

That said, that seems to me an inadequate reason for such a measure, granted the moves that have been made, the flexibility that was shown yesterday, and what so far has been shared with us. There is much further to go. Granted all that, I am in favour of moving ahead to the next stage, which means that I cannot support this amendment as it stands, but I welcome the provision, for example, regarding a further meeting with the group of interested Peers when the funding situation is clear, so that our views can be formally and openly expressed.

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[Lord Sutherland of Houndwood]

My Lords, I very much support the spirit of Amendment 20A. This is one of the key points that the Bill seeks to address. However—continuing in my pessimistic mode, I fear—I think this is one of the hard choices that may have to be made. I can see how large providers might well be able to do this and how in large centres of population this kind of provision will be possible. But asking small providers to continue provision outside their normal hours may well stop them operating completely. This is a matter of hard choices and I would be much happier with the amendment if it said something like, “Regulations should take account of the need to” rather than “ensure” because I do not think that regulations can ensure this.

Very quickly, I would be unhappy to do what Amendment 2 suggests because I fear that if you take the Secretary of State out of the line of full responsibility, the danger is that the responsibility lands on the local authorities and, as we have seen in other areas—and I have a lot of interest in the provision of care for the elderly—the local authority would have the responsibility but not the funding.

[Baroness Tyler of Enfield (LD)]

My Lords, my name is also attached to Amendment 20A. I feel strongly about this issue because a few years ago I chaired a policy working group about how families could balance their working lives with their family commitments. In looking at childcare issues, the three As—availability, accessibility and affordability—were thought to be extremely important, and we are hearing a lot about them today. But something else was felt to be equally important by the people we talked to: flexibility.

I was very taken by some recent research produced by Citizens Advice about the experience of parents in the childcare market, which really highlighted how those children who need childcare at non-typical hours were found to be at a far greater disadvantage, and parents spoke of their “intense difficulty” in finding childcare that worked for them. They often did flexible working hours or shift work, were in low-paid employment and were dependent on public transport. Their experience suggested that it was close to impossible to find childcare before 7 am and after 7 pm on workdays, or at any times at weekends; for some, even finding care outside 9 am to 4 pm was difficult. Childminders were seen as just as inflexible as nurseries. That is why I think it is very important to say something about this in the Bill.

I would just like to respond to the very important point that the noble Lord, Lord Sutherland, has just made because I think it really would be a problem if this applied to every provider, as he said. Clearly, some small providers would not be in a position to do that but if you look at the wording of the amendment, it talks about having that flexibility,

“within the local authority area”,

not in relation to every single provider. That is an important point to stress.

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[Lord Sutherland of Houndwood]

My Lords, none of us would disagree with the importance of quality of staff; that is the fundamental thing that will make a childcare centre work, and work well. I have sympathy with all these amendments, because they point to particular features that may be part of ensuring, or giving reassurance, that quality is present—for example, qualifications. The evidence that we had in our committee was that qualifications are one of the most important identifiers of quality of staff. However, I have to put in the rubric that, of course, there is no guarantee. I have met many well-qualified people who do not exude quality in the required way. However, there is good evidence that qualifications are one indicator. For example, we have heard about the importance of a special individual in the setting. When I was at school, I suppose that would have been my form master. He did not teach me French, maths or physics, and sometimes he was a pain in the neck—but sometimes he was very useful and helpful. It is a relationship with an individual that is fundamental here. When it works well, it works exceptionally well, but it is not the only indicator. Equally, the staff training and development process is important.

Quality is a complex thing, with a whole series of factors, including the quality of the buildings in which the groups take place. A better way in which to tackle this issue would be to ensure that, off the Bill, instructions and guidance to Ofsted, which inspects these nurseries and care centres, are sufficiently clear to provide reassurance to parents that there is high-quality provision. Flexibility will be required and will vary from one place to another. Not all groups will be able to provide a specialist in SEN, but there need to be arrangements so that they have access to a specialist, even if it is in some other group. So I am pleading for flexibility here, rather than detail in the Bill.

[Baroness Howarth of Breckland]

My Lords, I support the noble Baroness’s wish for a national workforce strategy, for children with disability generally but particularly for those with learning disabilities or in specialist nurseries. That is because the availability of places for those children is simply not there, in my experience: that is why parents cannot access them. Where parents do wish to access them, local authorities often make it very difficult for them to do so, by producing very complex financial arrangements that exclude those nurseries from the capacity to give help to children. I have spoken about this to the noble Lord, Lord Nash. The Bill is complex, and this is another range of complexities that would benefit from a further look at a later stage, outside the Bill.

At the same time, as many of my colleagues know, I believe that we need a good mix. Of course we need qualifications. Having been involved sometimes at both ends of inspections, I know that qualifications belong to a tick box that is easier to look at, measure and add up than it is to look at skills, competency and relationships. Those are the things that actually matter. They are often enhanced by qualifications, but we need to look at provision that has a mix of all those qualities, particularly for children with difficulties. I do not believe, therefore, that qualifications are everything, but I do think that it is sometimes difficult to measure the other areas of expertise. Moreover, many voluntary organisations would like to add to the training of their staff, but as their colleagues will know, if you are going to train a member of staff you have to release them. Even if organisations are doing in-house training, they have to find time. That adds to the cost, so they have to make sure that cost is covered, which puts extra pressure on the budget.

Therefore, I cannot fully endorse the amendments in terms of qualifications, but we all need to move forward and look at the complexity of what we are trying to provide for children in these situations.

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[Baroness Andrews]

My Lords, I support my noble friend on this point. If the Delegated Powers Committee had believed that first-time affirmative action was sufficient it would certainly have said so, because its mark as a committee is to be proportionate. There is a very good reason why it has said, so strongly, that any changes must be done through the affirmative procedure each time. Perhaps I may use the Government’s arguments against them. The Minister previously argued that these definitions of eligibility were technical, but they are not. The point about these regulations is that the definitions represent the substance of the Bill: who is going to be eligible for these extended childcare provisions. They are a serious aspect of the Bill and should be on the face of it. The Minister argued that there may be a need to change the definitions and if they are in secondary legislation they can be changed more easily. If that is the case, the changes to the definitions are very serious indeed. As the committee says, they may be made to remove or add new categories. The Government know that they are dealing with a febrile and dynamic situation with a complex aspect of policy and they may well require to change these regulations. We are dealing with massive uncertainties here. The Government would be well advised—I say this in all sincerity—to follow the advice of the committee in this instance and ensure that each change in the regulations is properly debated in this House by way of an affirmative resolution

[Lord Sutherland of Houndwood]

My Lords, I do not often listen to myself in debates but I did so earlier on and began to wonder if I was sitting on the right set of Benches, on a Cross Bench. However, I am now reassured that I am, on two grounds. First, I welcome the report of the Delegated Powers Committee very warmly indeed: somewhat more so than the Minister. Secondly, I support the amendment on a belt-and-braces basis. The point has just been made that there are many uncertainties here and we need to be reassured that these will be resolved on the Floor of this House.

[Lord Mackay of Clashfern]

My Lords, I have one comment on the report of the Delegated Powers Committee. If all Bills had to be preceded by a Green Paper and a White Paper, there would be a long interval after a general election before there would be any legislation at all. Some people would welcome that but, on the other hand, those who are anxious to fulfil their commitments might not wish to wait that long.