Small Business, Enterprise and Employment Bill

Lord Stevenson of Balmacara Excerpts

Tuesday 17th March 2015 Lords Chamber

[Baroness Neville-Rolfe]

My Lords, the amendments in this group make a number of consequential and technical changes to the Bill. I turn first to Amendments 4, 6, 12 and 13. In Committee, the Government moved a number of technical amendments about the penalties in the Bill. The majority of those related to the penalties in Parts 7 and 8. At the time, it was unclear whether changes to the fines available to magistrates in the Legal Aid, Sentencing and Punishment of Offenders Act 2012 would be implemented during this Parliament. This was because the regulations needed to accompany commencement were yet to be debated in both Houses of Parliament and a number of the amendments were designed to ensure that the penalties worked in either event. As noble Lords may be aware, Section 85 of LASPO came into force on 12 March. As a result, there is no longer an upper limit on fines in the magistrates’ courts. My amendments therefore remove the changes we made in relation to these fines, as they are no longer necessary.

I now turn to Amendments 14 to 16. Noble Lords will be aware that the Deregulation Bill has recently been read in this House for a third time, and yesterday this House considered and agreed amendments made to it in the other place. These technical amendments are therefore required so that the Schedule 9 amendments are based on the text of the Insolvency Act after amendment by the Deregulation Bill.

Finally, I turn to Amendments 7 to 9. Our penalty measure in Clause 150 provides for full and prompt payment of employment tribunal awards. This will reassure claimants that, should they be successful at a tribunal, they will receive the money that they are owed. Clause 150(5) already amends the Employment Tribunals Act 1996 to provide that the affirmative procedure applies to regulations made under the new provisions. However, it does not also remove them from the category of instruments that are subject to negative procedure. Amendments 7 to 9 correct this.

I hope noble Lords will welcome these various amendments and give them the House’s support.

[Lord Stevenson of Balmacara (Lab)]

My Lords, it says in the Companion very clearly that Third Readings are mainly used for tidying up complicated parts of Bills that perhaps have eluded the draftsman or indeed are subject to a change in other places. The descriptions as made by the Minister clearly fulfil all aspects of that and we have no wish to enter into them.

I must say that I was slightly confused by the insertion and then removal and then the reinsertion but in a different way of the Legal Aid, Sentencing and Punishment of Offenders Act provision. However, the Minister has explained the reason for that in a private meeting and we are very happy with the provisions now.

Amendment 4 agreed.

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[Lord Deben (Con)]

My Lords, I thank my noble friend very much for this concession. I entirely agree with her that nobody in this House thought that the Government were not going to do this. We understood that there was no malice aforethought in any sense at all, but it is surprising how people can make malice if they can find a way of doing it, and many people were suggesting that, in some way, the Government were taking control over this independent body, which would be unacceptable internationally. That is why we made the point, and I, for one, am very pleased that the Government have accepted it. I thank my noble friend for the courteous way in which she has dealt with this and, indeed, the detailed answer that she has given us.

[Lord Stevenson of Balmacara]

My Lords, this is a strange moment because exactly the same arguments and debates—indeed the same personnel—debated much the same amendment in the Deregulation Bill, as the Minister has explained. The result on that occasion was that the EHRC was not excluded from the Deregulation Bill. In a sense, the points made by the noble Lord, Lord Deben, are entirely correct. I think that we as a House are convinced that the Government do not wish any ill on the EHRC and wish to see its “A” status preserved. We have excluded it from this Bill—which had a small but important adjunct of policy which bit on the EHRC—but we have not excluded it from the Deregulation Bill, which covers a much larger area. Obviously the Minister has skills way beyond those with which she came into this House—and there were many when she arrived. She has gained in strength and capacity. She has been able to do the impossible in going round the magic circle of Cabinet committees in a record-breaking time and I congratulate her on this amendment.

Amendment 5 agreed.

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[Lord Newby (LD)]

My Lords, Amendments 10 and 11 relate to the public sector exit payment provisions and deliver the commitment I made on Report to make these powers subject to the affirmative procedure on their first use. This was in light of a further report by the Delegated Powers and Regulatory Reform Committee and we are grateful for the committee’s scrutiny of the Bill.

This first use will be the substantive one to establish the exit payment recovery regime. The regulations will contain full details of the government subsectors, the types of exit payments included, the circumstances in which recovery is mandated and the amount to be recovered. They will also set out the duties upon the persons and employers involved to retain and communicate information and facilitate the repayment.

Amendment 11 allows for changes to this first set of regulations to be made by the negative resolution procedure. These subsequent regulations will contain the minor and technical changes which will be aimed solely at ensuring that the regime remains up to date and fit for purpose. For example, changes will be required to reflect any new public body that is created or closed. I beg to move.

[Lord Stevenson of Balmacara]

My Lords, this is very much a technical issue. The amendment responds to the recommendations by the DPRR Committee and satisfies in full that committee’s concerns. When the Minister introduced the amendment just a few seconds ago, he did not refer to the supplementary memorandum by BIS which was circulated recently by the committee relating to whether or not the Delegated Powers and Regulatory Reform Committee had in some way impinged on the powers of the Scottish Parliament on this matter. Can he add a few words just to make sure that the record is clear on that?

[Lord Newby]

I am afraid I will have to write to the noble Lord.

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[Lord Stevenson of Balmacara]

My Lords, perhaps I may take this opportunity to thank the Minister for the way in which she has led this long and incredibly complex Bill over the past few months. She has been exemplary in offering meetings and has made sure that we have been fully briefed by officials, for which we are very grateful. Whenever debates have raised issues that she felt needed further consideration, she has written to us, thus carrying on a practice started by her predecessor; while he was pretty good at it, she has been exemplary and has won hands down in that race.

We said at the beginning of the Bill that we would like to work closely with her if we could because the Bill was in the right place in what it was trying to achieve and there were many things on which we could agree. Indeed, we felt that in some senses it could have gone further. I hope the Minister agrees that that has proved to be of considerable benefit to the process of getting the Bill to the position it is in now.

I want to make sure that recognition is duly paid to my team, my noble friends Lord Mendelsohn, Lord Mitchell, Lord Young, Lady Hayter and Lady Jones, who have all had to appear at various times during the passage of the Bill because it covered so many different aspects of the Government’s work. We also had the innovation of having a Back-Bench liaison Peer, my noble friend Lord Watson of Invergowrie. As well as taking a particular interest in the PSC register, he also worked very hard to make sure that Back-Benchers were fully involved. That helped to stimulate the debates and get us through the work. We have also benefited from a very hard-working legislative assistant, Nicola Jayawickreme, our former apprentice in our office at the end of the corridor, who has grown in stature and confidence as this legislation has progressed. So apprenticeships do work.

Having spent a lot of time in areas that perhaps we did not expect to when the Bill was first introduced, and having become expert in the intricacies of how pub companies and pub tenancies work and the implications of various activities in that area, as well as lots more, let us say “Cheers” to this Bill as we wish it on its way.

[Lord Stoneham of Droxford (LD)]

My Lords, I endorse the words of the noble Lord, Lord Stevenson, by thanking the noble Baroness, Lady Neville-Rolfe, for her unfailing courtesy and competence throughout the transaction of the Bill. I also thank the noble Lords, Lord Mendelsohn and Lord Stevenson, for their efforts to improve the Bill and to work with all of us who have been engaged on it over the past few weeks. I thank my noble friend Lady Janke, who has been assisting me on these Benches. I particularly thank all the officials who have dealt with our replies and the detail of queries that we have had on the Bill throughout the past few weeks.