Employment Rights Bill

Lord Sentamu Excerpts

Committee stage
Thursday 8th May 2025 Lords Chamber

[Lord Leong (Lab)]

I give the noble Lord my commitment that it is very much a work in progress.

[Lord Sentamu (CB)]

I want the Minister to explain something. He has refused to set the definite hours in which this needs to be done. He said that that would be prescriptive and that the tribunal will determine whether the matter is reasonable. Is it not quite odd to rely on the tribunal to execute what noble Lords are trying to suggest in their amendments? Should not the Bill itself include those hours? If you do not want to be prescriptive, you can say, “Up to 24 hours”, or, “Up to 48 hours”, which means that they do not have to go all that way—that is slightly less prescriptive. I am baffled that the Minister wants the tribunals to enter into these matters. He and I know that they take a long time and cost a lot of money. Why is he legislating to open a door in this area to tribunals, which everybody should try to avoid?

[Lord Leong (Lab)]

I thank the noble and right reverend Lord for his intervention. I can say only that I thought we were all agreed that flexibility is a good thing, and I am sure we do not want anything in the Bill that would restrict either an employee or an employer from making a reasonable judgment on a case-by-case basis. On that, I rest my case.

Employment Rights Bill

Lord Sentamu Excerpts

Committee stage
Wednesday 21st May 2025 Lords Chamber

In the spirit of trying to be constructive, I want to suggest a way forward. To me, the easiest solution here would be simply to remove Clause 23 and Schedule 3 altogether and just shorten the qualifying period to nine months, without changing the already significant existing protections. I think that would be acceptable to most businesses, and it would minimise the damage this policy will cause to the business in terms of costs, but most importantly to the life chances of those people who need employers to take a chance on them. It would also go a long way to meeting most of what the Government appear to be trying to achieve.

[Lord Sentamu (CB)]

My Lords, I find myself wanting to support the amendments tabled by the noble Lord, Lord Vaux. The reason is this. We arrived in Berwick-upon-Tweed, which, by the way, according to the Guardian a few days ago, is the most loving, caring place—the best in the country. Yes, maybe since I arrived it has become that; none the less, that is what it said. It is the most peaceful place to live in. Sometimes, we do not even lock our doors when we go out for a short period. In other places, they would know, word would get round, and you would be visited by people who think they should acquire your property, outside the law.

We had to find a plumber. The plumber was wonderful, the best in the town, and people said that to get him was quite costly. He was costly because, once you agreed to let him do the work, he would say, “I have an apprentice. I could pay him as the Government say and give him the national living wage. But he is at college and doing very well, and I would like him to graduate, and to succeed”. So, he said that a fee would be charged to the person who hires him. He showed that in his receipts—the amount you paid for the wonderful apprentice. That apprentice, Oscar, has grown in his job since being there for four years. When he graduates, he will be one of the best plumbers.

Apprentices need to be protected. My plumber will never just immediately say that the job is coming to an end, because he has been very wise. He is a single employer who works alone, and out of his business he is willing to pay the amount of money the Government have allocated. However, he suddenly realised that some of us would like to put in a little bit more for this apprentice. So, there will never be a day when he has not got money to keep that apprentice, even if business may not be coming in.

This is an example of an employer who employs an apprentice, and I am sure he is going to get another one. His apprentice learnt very fast: for three days a week, he had to go to college in the morning, and then come back to do the apprentice work—

[Captain of the King’s Bodyguard of the Yeomen of the Guard and Deputy Chief Whip (Baroness Wheeler) (Lab)]

I think the noble Lord is speaking to the previous amendment, which is about apprentices.

[Lord Sentamu (CB)]

I am supporting it.

[Baroness Wheeler (Lab)]

This is the clause stand part notice. The previous amendment was about apprentices, which I think the noble Lord is speaking about.

[Lord Sentamu (CB)]

I am supporting this one, but also the amendments which come later, which are mentioned. That is what I said at the beginning.

Employment Rights Bill

Lord Sentamu Excerpts

Report stage
Wednesday 16th July 2025 Lords Chamber

[Lord Hogan-Howe (CB)]

My Lords, I support the amendment. It seems to be a reasonable change to get rid of the two years, and I think six months is a more reasonable representation. My question, though, is about how this will affect police officers.

Police officers are not employees. Their terms and conditions are governed by secondary legislation or police regulations. It is already quite difficult to remove the ones who should be removed because, first, they are represented by lawyers—I say this with all respect to the lawyers in the room—in the misconduct process. It never makes it quicker, and it always makes it more expensive. Secondly, when the assessment is made of whether the proof is there to sack them, the test of the standard of evidence is moved from the balance of probabilities to beyond reasonable doubt. That is the same standard for criminal proof, so it is quite a high standard, and they are represented by a lawyer. It gets quite difficult.

The two-year probationary period has always been a good way to remove those people who should be removed or who are not suited to the role. If we are to remove that two-year period, one of the measures by which we get rid of the worst officers will be lost, and I worry about that. We know from research that often the officers who turn bad later should have been removed in their probationary period, had everyone had the courage to take that decision.

I am not saying that it is wrong or right, nor that the police regulations should definitely change, but I would like to understand what the Government’s reaction is. We will have a group of people who are not classed as employees—police officers—who will still have a two-year period and, under the new scheme, might have none at all. This is a group I think we should pay particular attention to. Perhaps the Government might give their view on how they intend to deal with that.

[Lord Sentamu (CB)]

My Lords, I will begin with an explanation. When I supported the amendment from the noble Lord, Lord Vaux of Harrowden, in Committee, there was concern about a risk assessment that said that if there was no probation period, it would be quite difficult for some employers to take people on. The same question was then posed, rather more sharply, by the noble and learned Lord, Lord Phillips: would you employ an ex-offender if there was no probation period at all? That little sentence requires probing.

Last time, I began with apprenticeships. In particular, I spoke about a young man called Oscar, who has been taken on by one of our best plumbers in Berwick, and I said that I hoped he qualifies. I was about to move on to the actual amendment when I said that, when Oscar finishes his apprenticeship, he will have an interview with his current employer and some other people, and that if he passes that interview he will be expected to serve a period of probation, and that this wonderful plumber would not be likely to retain Oscar if there was no probation period. That is where I was going to end. It is right that we remove the two-year qualifying period, which is too long, but I am not so sure that it should be nine months.

In the Church of England, no cleric is an employee because they are all self-employed. I remember a wonderful case where someone complained about a bishop for something they had said to this particular clergy, who had gone to a tribunal after a series of reviews that showed that he was not competent in what he was doing. At the end of the hearing, the clergy was told that he was suing the bishop but that the bishop was not his employer—his employer was God. He was told that if he could bring God into this, he could sue him because he was self-employed and answerable only to God.

We have lived without this worry, but the more I have worked with a lot of people and become a trainer for some, the more I have realised that, if we remove the probation period, we are going to find ourselves in a very difficult situation. The people who are more likely to miss out are young people who need some mentoring and support, and who can be directed to different things.

I am not sure where this is coming from. There are, of course, bad employers, who like to dismiss people at the shortest notice. If we went for six or 12 months in the statute, most employers would abide by what they have taken on. Let us give a good word to employers and not think that all of them simply want you to get out as soon as you come in.

I support Amendments 49, 50 and 51. If all of them are put to a vote, I will be the first into the Lobby.

[Lord de Clifford (CB)]

My Lords, I support this group of amendments, as the initial period of employment is so important to both employers and employees. I declare my interest in the register as the part owner of an SME veterinary practice that employs 140 employees. I am one of those people who will suffer from Clause 23, which is changing our views because of the uncertainty it will bring. Your Lordships have made many very important points that I will try not to repeat.

As employers, we still have no details of when the consultation on probation periods will be launched or how it will work, again creating uncertainty. Probation periods are so important to both employees and employers. The start of a new job is very important for both parties and is, we hope, the start of a long and productive relationship. Employers value employees who stay for many years, as the cost of employing individuals is so expensive. Employees have flexibility at the start of a job, with generally a week’s notice. All we ask is for flexibility for employers as well. That is what probation periods grant, but the Bill will potentially remove these.

Why is the probationary period so important for employers? It is a time to assess whether the individual that you have employed has the capacity to do the required tasks of the job. Do they have the skills that they said they have? Do their skills meet the standards that you set for your business? Is their attendance of a reasonable standard to be part of a team? Do they fit the culture of the business and hold similar values? If the employee, for whatever reason, does not fit, the employer has to go through a long, time-consuming and unfair dismissal process, even when someone has been in the business for two or three weeks or a couple of months—a process that uses up valuable management time and brings uncertainty for the employee. In some cases, it is blatantly clear that this relationship between the employee and the employer is not going to work.

As said by the noble Lords, Lord Sharpe of Epsom and Lord Vaux of Harrowden, we need guidance on the initial period of employment, as it is so important for employers to take on employees who may be disadvantaged in the job market. If employers want to give them a chance but have no clear guidance or a short probation period, they will not take a risk that could benefit potential employees and those who, in the long term, may become really valuable with some time.

This group of amendments seeks to bring important parts of the employment relationship into the Bill, rather than waiting for a long, detailed consultation, with no details. It would help the Government’s plan to make work pay by encouraging all into work. That is why I support this group. If the noble Lord, Lord Sharpe, calls for a Division, I will follow him into the Lobby.