Online Safety Bill

Debate between Lord Russell of Liverpool and Baroness Ritchie of Downpatrick

Report stage
Monday 10th July 2023 Lords Chamber

[Baroness Ritchie of Downpatrick (Lab)]

My Lords, the final issue I raised in Committee is dealt with in this group on so-called proportionality. I tabled amendments in Committee to ensure that under Part 3 no website or social media service with pornographic content could argue that it should be exempt from implementing age verification under Clause 11 because to do so would be disproportionate based on its size and capacity. I am pleased today to be a co-signatory to Amendment 39 tabled by the noble Lord, Lord Bethell, to do just that.

The noble Lord, Lord Russell, and the noble Baroness, Lady Kidron, have also tabled amendments which raise similar points. I am disappointed that despite all the amendments tabled by the Minister, the issue of proportionality has not been addressed; maybe he will give us some good news on that this evening. It feels like the job is not quite finished and leaves an unnecessary and unhelpful loophole.

I will not repeat all the arguments I made in Committee in depth but will briefly recap that we all know that in the offline world, we expect consistent regulation regardless of size when it comes to protecting children. We do not allow a small corner shop to act differently from a large supermarket on the sale of alcohol or cigarettes. In a similar online scenario, we do not expect small or large gambling websites to regulate children’s access to gambling in a different way.

We know that the impact of pornographic content on children is the same whether it is accessed on a large pornographic website or a small social media platform. We know from the experience of France and Germany that pornographic websites will do all they can to evade age verification. As the noble Lord, Lord Stevenson, said on the eighth day of Committee, whether pornography

“comes through a Part 3 or Part 5 service, or accidently through a blog or some other piece of information, it has to be stopped. We do not want our children to receive it. That must be at the heart of what we are about, and not just something we think about as we go along”.—[Official Report, 23/5/23; col. 821.]

By not shutting off the proportionality argument, the Government are allowing different-sized online services to act differently on pornography and all the other primary priority content, as I raised in Committee. At that stage, the noble Baroness, Lady Kidron, said,

“we do not need to take a proportionate approach to pornography”.—[Official Report, 2/5/23; col. 1481.]

Amendment 39 would ensure that pornographic content is treated as a separate case with no loopholes for implementing age verification based on size and capacity. I urge the Minister to reflect on how best we can close this potential loophole, and I look forward to his concluding remarks.

[Lord Russell of Liverpool (CB)]

My Lords, I will briefly address Amendments 43 and 87 in my name. I thank the noble Baronesses, Lady Harding and Lady Kidron, and the noble Lord, Lord Knight, for adding their names to these amendments. They are complementary to the others in this group, on which the noble Lord, Lord Bethell, and the noble Baroness, Lady Ritchie, have spoken.

In Committee the Minister argued that it would be unfair to place the same child safety duties across all platforms. He said:

“This provision recognises that what it is proportionate to require of providers at either end of that scale will be different”.—[Official Report, 2/5/23; col. 1443.]


Think back to the previous group of amendments we debated. We talked about functionality and the way in which algorithms drive these systems. They drive you in all directions—to a large platform with every bell and whistle you might anticipate because it complies with the legislation, but also, willy-nilly, without any conscious thought because that is how it is designed, to a much smaller site. If we do not amend the legislation as it stands, they will take you to smaller sites that do not require the same level of safety duties, particularly towards children. I think we all fail to understand the logic behind that argument.

Health Protection (Coronavirus, International Travel) (England) (Amendment) (No. 7) Regulations 2021

Debate between Lord Russell of Liverpool and Baroness Ritchie of Downpatrick

Monday 22nd March 2021 Lords Chamber

[Baroness Ritchie of Downpatrick (Non-Afl) [V]]

My Lords, I congratulate the noble Baroness, Lady Chapman, on her maiden speech. We worked together in the other place when we were Members there, so I look forward to working with her in this House.

I support the Motion in the name of the noble Baroness, Lady Thornton. The regulations should have been laid earlier, despite the warning from the Scientific Advisory Group for Emergencies on 21 January that:

“Reactive, geographically targeted travel bans cannot be relied upon to stop importation of new variants”


of Covid-19. Why was this the case? Why are we dealing with this legislation in retrospect? In fact, the noble Lord, Lord Hunt, has referred to the subsequent regulations, which we will no doubt debate in future weeks.

There is a view that the Government failed to prevent the Brazilian strain of Covid-19 entering the UK, that the policy applies only to the 33 red-list countries and that 99% of passengers arriving in the UK are therefore exempt. So, could the Minister indicate what action the Government will take to ensure comprehensive hotel quarantine for all UK arrivals in order to prevent the importation of new variants of Covid-19? Is there not an onus of legal responsibility on the Government to ensure the public health protection of all our citizens? In asking that question, I do commend the Government on the rollout of the vaccination programme.

There is also a view that under these new regulations, a passenger could avoid their managed quarantine by separating the legs of their journey. Is there not a case for the Government to review their hotel quarantine policy to make it fit for purpose?

[The Deputy Speaker (Lord Russell of Liverpool) (CB)]

The noble Lord, Lord Randall of Uxbridge, has withdrawn, so I call the noble Lord, Lord Bhatia.

Medicines and Medical Devices Bill

Debate between Lord Russell of Liverpool and Baroness Ritchie of Downpatrick

Committee stage & Committee: 6th sitting (Hansard) & Committee: 6th sitting (Hansard): House of Lords
Tuesday 17th November 2020 Grand Committee

[The Deputy Chairman of Committees (Lord Russell of Liverpool) (CB)]

The noble Baroness, Lady McIntosh of Pickering, has scratched from this group, so we move on to the noble Baroness, Lady Ritchie of Downpatrick.

[Baroness Ritchie of Downpatrick (Non-Afl) [V]]

My Lords, it is a great pleasure to follow the noble Lord, Lord Blunkett, on this group. I pay tribute to the noble Baroness, Lady Cumberlege, for her report and for introducing this proposed new clause, which I feel the Minister should accept.

I apologise for not participating on previous days but I was involved in debates in the Chamber, so I ask your Lordships to accept my apologies.

I fully accept the need for this new clause. At Second Reading, I indicated that the recommendation of an independent patient safety commissioner, on a statutory basis—one of the central recommendations in the report of the noble Baroness, Lady Cumberlege, and her team—should be given legislative effect. The provision of high-quality healthcare in which all citizens can have confidence defines any nation. For me, that is why this Bill is so important and why it should be amended to include this proposed new clause, among others. Our ethical practices are of the highest standard, and any medical product available in the UK, or indeed anywhere, must be rigorously tested and be shown to be safe and effective. That also goes for the Covid vaccines which are currently under investigation and awaiting licence.

I have long campaigned to get justice for pelvic mesh sufferers who have been left with internal damage and intense, chronic pain. They were failed by an appalling culture of mismanagement, ignorance and apathy within the health system. These victims deserve better justice and we must ensure that this sort of systemic failure never happens again. I remember, as a Member of the other place, meeting many constituents —in the main, women—who had a pelvic mesh inserted and suffered immeasurable pain. They were trying their very best to have it removed.

The recent report by the noble Baroness, Lady Cumberlege, First Do No Harm, on surgical mesh and other medical interventions, was scathing in its assessment of the failure of a disjointed and defensive health system to listen to and address patient concerns. Much of the suffering, it concluded, was entirely avoidable. As I said, I met victims of this appalling mismanagement when I was a Member in the other place. I learned at first hand of the pain they had been forced to endure and the impact that it had on the quality of their lives and those of their families. Therefore, I am pleased that the report was commissioned and I am happy to support the recommendation for an independent patient safety commissioner, as per the proposed new clause. It should be placed on the face of the Bill. I believe that, if the Government are serious about that report and about the Bill, this recommendation should be given legislative effect, and I urge the Minister to accept the amendment.

It would be vital for the commissioner to lead with full patient group engagement, and be accountable to Parliament. Patient groups should also be involved in developing a set of better patient safety principles that would govern the way the commissioner fulfilled her or his remit.

As other noble Lords have referred to, we now have experience of the work of various commissioners. I can speak about those that exist in Northern Ireland. There is now a Veterans Commissioner, a Children’s Commissioner and a victims’ commissioner. They all do good work, acting as advocates for people in their specific fields, and bring forward recommendations to the devolved Administrations. In this particular instance, there is absolutely nothing to suggest that this commissioner, if established through this legislation, would not do likewise. They would be a listening ear and would seek to improve existing health service regulations and practice, particularly in the area of medical devices.

Therefore, I am very happy to support this proposed new clause, and I urge the Minister to accept it.