Immigration Bill

Lord Rosser Excerpts

Monday 18th January 2016 Lords Chamber

Moved by

[Lord Rosser]

63: Clause 8, page 5, line 6, at end insert “, without reasonable excuse,”

[Lord Rosser]

At Second Reading we expressed support for measures to toughen the penalties against employers who exploit employees. However, we expressed our concern about the provisions in the Bill in respect of those who work without leave to remain or beyond the restrictions of their visa, and which classify wages earnt in such employment as proceeds of crime. For employees in this situation the Bill creates a new criminal offence that is strict and without any defence, since it is committed if the individual employed does not have the right immigration status, and could result in a sentence of up to a year in prison.

No defence is set out in Clause 8. Our position is that there should not be such an offence for employees, but we also have an amendment in this group that would provide a defence of “reasonable excuse”. That amendment will provide the Government with an opportunity to clarify whether there is any defence to this new offence and, if they consider that there could be circumstances in which the offence would not be committed by an employee who did not have the right immigration status, to say why they have not included that, or provided for that situation, in the Bill.

What would be the position, for example, of people who were working in the belief that they had the right immigration status to do so—perhaps because they were sponsored by the employer—and then it emerged that they had committed this new offence because, without their knowing it, their employer had not completed all the necessary arrangements for sponsorship? Is the employee guilty of committing the new criminal offence, thus becoming a criminal? Unless there was a defence under the Modern Slavery Act—that certainly would not be the case in the situation I have outlined—Clause 8 would appear to say yes. Is that fair, just and proportionate?

--- Later in debate ---

[Lord Bates]

It is the same argument as before: whether the same test applies to people who are here legally—in one form—but are exceeding or abusing the terms by which they are in the UK. The noble Baroness may be saying that if that provision contained the phrase “without reasonable excuse”, it should be read across. But there is no ability to say that you can be prosecuted for the proceeds of crime unless you have a reasonable excuse. It is therefore consistent to apply the same test to somebody who is here illegally as to somebody who is here legally but exceeding the terms of their permission to be here.

[Lord Rosser]

Before I respond to the Minister, I thought he said earlier that he would be reflecting on certain aspects ahead of Report. I wonder whether he would mind repeating what issues he will reflect on before Report.

[Lord Bates]

The short answer is, of course, that I reflect on all the comments made by noble Lords ahead of Report. I have nothing specific in mind, but it would be helpful if the noble Lord came back with a further question.

[Lord Rosser]

Is the Minister agreeing to reflect on the points made in the debate this evening and to come back with a response, negative or positive, before Report? Is that what he is agreeing to do, without any specific commitment?

[Lord Bates]

The new offence will serve as an important deterrent. I have listened very carefully to the noble Lord’s concerns. Although I am of the opinion that there are sufficient safeguards to ensure that the offence is used appropriately and that victims of modern slavery are protected, I said that I would reflect on that point very carefully, listen to the debate and come back with further remarks on Report. The particular point was about whether the defences are sufficient for those who may have been the victims of modern-day slavery.

[Lord Rosser]

Do I understand that it will not cover the example that I referred to and which the noble Baroness, Lady Hamwee, has just referred to? That is where an individual had effectively been told by their employer that they could be employed, but it was subsequently found out, for example, that the employer was not properly sponsoring them because for some reason or other they had not completed the necessary paperwork correctly, and therefore the individual found themselves in a situation where they were not entitled to work. That was, in essence, the point I was raising.

I appreciate it is probably unfair to expect the Minister to respond to that point now, but I get the impression from what he has said that the area he has agreed to reflect on is very limited. I would hope that he might be willing to say, without making any commitment, that he will reflect on the necessity of this whole issue relating to the offence of illegal working for employees. I accept that this is not the only argument that has been raised, but the principal argument is that the threat of action being taken will be used to deter vulnerable people who may be being exploited, to a greater or lesser degree, from coming forward to expose and report their abusers. That is the principal effect that this new offence is likely to have, and it is likely to be used in that way by unscrupulous employers. I do not think that the Minister has responded directly to that point and I simply urge him to reflect on what has been said on that particular issue—without, I accept, making any commitment—between now and Report.

[Lord Bates]

I am very happy to do that. If it would be helpful, I would also be very happy to meet with the noble Lord and other interested Peers, with the relevant officials, to talk through our experience on that, which is what has led us to the position that we have taken, and to hear what evidence they may wish to present to the contrary. I think both sides will find that very helpful ahead of Report.

[Lord Rosser]

In that case, I will not say any more other than to express my thanks to the Minister for agreeing to do that. I beg leave to withdraw my amendment.

Amendment 63 withdrawn.