Public Institutions

Lord Robathan Excerpts

Thursday 30th June 2016 Lords Chamber

[Lord Robathan (Con)]

My Lords, I compliment the noble Baroness, Lady O’Neill, and my noble friend Lord Norton on their very interesting, thoughtful and, dare I say it, rather academic and philosophical views of the wider issue that we are discussing. I am afraid I shall bring it back to the narrower issue in supporting my noble friend Lord Fairfax but the good news for the House is that I shall not detain it long.

In reinforcing my noble friend Lord Fairfax’s point about the register of interests, I note for instance that my noble friend Lord Tugendhat—I have not told him about this but it is in no way critical—mentioned that he was in receipt of a pension from the Commission when he took part in the EU Committee report, The Process of Withdrawing from the European Union, an extremely useful document. I mention that because I do not see the problem with it. Indeed, there is no problem at all, so I back up my noble friend Lord Fairfax on that. Perhaps I may cite my noble friend Lord Lexden, who took part in the previous debate. He said more than my noble friend Lord Fairfax says. He said that it,

“simply will not pass muster in this age of much-vaunted transparency”.—[Hansard, 30/06/16; col. 1700.]

I agree with the noble Baroness but that is what he said. It would be better if people were open when they have an interest that could be a conflict of interest—not that it necessarily is.

Leading on from that, I wish to concentrate on the latter part of the Motion on,

“reinforcing confidence in public institutions”.

Narrowly, I want to talk about confidence in this institution. I have been a Member for only eight months; it is a unique and pretty strange but very privileged position. It can work and I am happy to defend the House of Lords but we do not have constituents to whom we answer, nor are we accountable at elections for our actions and views. However, we are accountable in a more general sense.

I particularly want to pick up on my discovery in the last few months that my view, which was that leaving the European Union was the right thing for this country—I am sure everybody would agree that we should always try to do the right thing, whether in politics or in our personal lives—was in a minority. Having a minority view is fine but I found that my view was rather derided and I found myself criticised and actually heckled for expressing that view. I met a wall of hostility. Similarly, when the noble Lord, Lord Pearson of Rannoch, stands up, he tends to be rather derided. There is nothing the matter with people disagreeing, but it is quite worrying when the overwhelming view in this House is out of touch with the majority view of the British public.

In reflecting my own view, my judgment was of course paramount, because I believe it was the right thing to do, but I hope that I at no stage derided the more than 16 million people in this country who took a contrary view. But to see the view of the 17.5 million of my fellow citizens so derided, in this House or elsewhere, is surely wrong. For those who read the London Times, there is an article by David Aaronovitch today which basically says the people have spoken but they have got it wrong and we have to go back and try it all over again. I am sorry, but the people have indeed spoken.

I will go further. One noble Lord, before the referendum, told me that we would have to stop any legislation coming forward should the country vote for out. I assumed he must be joking. But not at all, he thought that was right: after the largest participation of the electorate in a democratic vote since 1992, he was keen to ignore the result because it did not coincide with his views. If we want to reinforce confidence in this House and this public institution, we need to consider—dare I say it—less arrogantly the view of the British people. That is not to say that we have always to agree with them, but we who are fortunate enough to be here are here to serve the British people.

In the Commons yesterday, one Member of Parliament was booed because he took a contrary view and was in favour of leaving. In this House it has been less vocal, but there has been chuntering whenever noble Lords express views contrary to the settled view of this House on the EU. Formerly, as a Member of Parliament, I would talk to my constituents every weekend, as one has to, in the street, in the supermarket, at advice sessions, at events or whatever. I should like the House to know that I still talk to them in the street, in the supermarket or wherever. I suggest that we in this House need to listen rather more to the British people. It is not that they are always right, but we need to listen to them and understand from our privileged position that we owe it to the British people—our people—to take a more balanced view of what they want.

Your Lordships overwhelmingly opposed what has turned out to be the majority view of the British electorate in the referendum. Of course we should not abandon principles—far from it, we should stand by them—but nor should we dismiss the concerns of our fellow Britons. If we wish to reinforce confidence in this institution, we should take greater note of the views of the people of this country, whom we are here to serve.

--- Later in debate ---

[Lord Paddick (LD)]

My Lords, thankfully I got wind of what this debate was really about, as opposed to what is on the Order Paper. I do not know much about EU pensions. All I know is that the Privileges Committee of this House considered this issue in 2004, 2007, 2010 and again, it would appear, this year, and came up with the same conclusion. The other thing I would say on the subject is that we are a self-regulating House. I therefore suggest that the noble Baroness, Lady Chisholm of Owlpen, should say simply that it is not a matter for the Government, it is a matter for this House.

Taking it slightly wider on pensions, I remember signing my contract as a senior police officer, when I was appointed as a deputy assistant commissioner, where I had to undertake not to discuss anything that I learned during the course of my employment outside the police service for X years to come. As a consequence of having signed such a contract I, along with many other senior police officers, published my autobiography within months of leaving, on the word of the then chief executive of the Metropolitan Police Authority, who told me that the contract was not worth the paper it was written on.

More seriously, what I also did when I joined as a constable in 1976 and did again when I retired as a deputy assistant commissioner in 2007, was sign the Official Secrets Act, which again was an undertaking not to reveal sensitive issues that I had experienced during my service. I might be tempting fate, but so far I have not been arrested for revealing what might be considered sensitive things, not least in this House. To be honest, to suggest that Members of this House would not act on their honour and express their honest opinion in debates because they were in receipt of a pension from wherever it is I think is an absolute disgrace. The problem of trust is not—

[Lord Robathan]

I am grateful to the noble Lord. First, I think his analogy is stretching it a bit far. I am in receipt of an Army pension. Nobody can take it away from me, as it happens, any more than they can take away his police pension. But the point—surely he understands this—is about perception. I am sure that all the former Commissioners here are honourable people, but it is the perception that is left hanging there when they do not declare their interest.

[Lord Paddick]

I am grateful for the intervention. As a matter of fact, were I found guilty of a serious criminal offence, which breach of the Official Secrets Act is, I could quite easily have my pension withdrawn from me. I suggest that the problem of trust—