Welfare Reform Bill

Lord Rix Excerpts

Tuesday 17th January 2012 Lords Chamber

[Lord McKenzie of Luton]

My Lords, as the Minister said, we have an amendment in this group that I do not propose to move as I accept it has been superseded by the Government’s formulation—this listening Government that we have on this issue.

It is to be welcomed that the Government have accepted the arguments that have been put forward over many months and from many quarters. As the Minister indicated, we should be particularly thankful to the noble Lord, Lord Low, for his leading on the independent—I would stress the importance of independent—review of personal mobility in state-funded residential care. The report does not just focus on the narrow issue of the availability of the mobility component of DLA—soon to be PIP—but on wider issues of the mobility needs of disabled people, the role of local authorities and care home providers, and the importance of mobility to disabled people’s rights. The clear conclusion in that review found no significant evidence of overlap in the support offered by the mobility complement of DLA and that offered by local authorities and providers. If the rights of disabled people are to be preserved, it is vital that DLA mobility and its successor under PIP are retained for people living in residential care. The report offered a very clear analysis, which I would suggest the Government, frankly, had no option but to accept. Perhaps we should leave unanswered the question of what the position today might have been if the initiative by Mencap and Leonard Cheshire had not been undertaken and the noble Lord, Lord Low, had not assembled such a knowledgeable team to produce this report.

We always give voice to the proposition that disabled people are the experts in their own affairs. It is just a pity that it took so long for their voices to be heard on this occasion, but we should welcome the fact that that has now happened.

[Lord Rix]

My Lords, as Mencap has just been mentioned, I would very much like, as president of Mencap, to thank the Minister and his colleagues for accepting this situation and the Low report. I congratulate my noble friend Lord Low on his splendid research into this problem. It is wonderful to hear the Government’s change of tack. I notice that the Minister mentioned hospitals, but I was busy chatting to the noble Baroness, Lady Hollins, at that moment. Did he mention children? I was not quite sure what the position was going to be regarding children—over 16 and under 16—in regard to this mobility component. However, apart from that, we are very satisfied in Mencap. I would like to thank, both personally and on behalf of Mencap, the Minister and his colleagues for this change of heart.

[Lord Low of Dalston]

My Lords, I promised the Minister earlier on that if he just waited long enough, sweetness and light would break out. The fact that the noble Lord, Lord McKenzie, and I have our names on another amendment in this group enables me to tell him that we have now reached that point.

There is more joy in heaven over one sinner that repenteth than over 99 just persons who need no repentance. For that reason, I greatly welcome the Government’s decision to drop their proposal to withdraw the mobility component from those living in residential care. I have been given some credit for bringing this about with the review that I was asked to lead by Leonard Cheshire Disability and Mencap, but I think, in all honesty, I must disclaim this. Half of that is because I had a very good team working with me, supported by an extremely able and hard-working secretariat from both organisations; and half because I think Ministers, to their considerable credit, largely came to their decision of their own accord. Perhaps I may have provided a little cover for a U-turn—if so, I am glad to have been of service.

It would be tedious if I were to start recycling all the water that has now flowed under the bridge by rehearsing the considerations that led both the Government and my review to come to the conclusion that it would not be appropriate to withdraw the mobility component from those living in residential care. Probably the most significant of them, as has been mentioned, was that we could not detect any evidence of the double funding that was thought to exist and the Government could not either.

The Government can be proud of the fact that on this occasion, when faced with the evidence that did not support their initial conclusion, they had the grace to acknowledge the fact and reverse that initial conclusion. This is very much to be welcomed and a matter for congratulation.

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Moved by

[Lord Rix]

55: Clause 86, page 61, line 14, leave out subsection (3) and insert—
“( ) Regulations will prescribe what considerations must be taken into account in deciding whether a fixed term award would be appropriate.”

[Lord Rix]

First, my Lords, I should make a correction for Hansard: it was the noble Baroness, Lady Hollis, who I was chatting to, not the noble Baroness, Lady Hollins. I inadvertently put an “n” into her name, and I apologise.

My Amendments 55 and 56 relate to opportunities for people in receipt of PIP to receive lifetime or indefinite awards of the benefits in much the same way as many people do who are currently entitled to DLA. As figures published by the Department for Work and Pensions in May 2010 revealed, of the 3,157,300 people in receipt of DLA some 2,239,500 received an indefinite award, and on closer inspection this is hardly surprising. If an individual’s disability, impairment or condition is lifelong, their needs will either remain the same or increase over time—they will not go away. Therefore, it seems perfectly logical and right for them to be entitled to the benefits indefinitely.

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[Lord Rix]

I apologise for interrupting yet again. The point is that if, as I said, the annual health checks are taken for these people it can be reported medically. Certainly the carers can report on this. There is no question that if your son or daughter or your friend is obviously not receiving the amount they should be, it is up to you to get hold of the necessary officials and to inform them. Equally, the annual health checks should certainly—for people with a learning disability anyway, although I do not know about other disabilities —take care of any deterioration in condition.

[Lord Freud]

My Lords, let me go through the approach we are planning to take in PIP. It will involve a personalised approach and, in some cases, awards will be fixed for a short period—maybe one or two years—but in others they will be much longer and we are looking at awards that could be five or 10 years. That will depend on the circumstances of the individual, the impact of their health condition or their impairment and the extent to which they are able to live independently and participate in society. In many circumstances, this can change for better or for worse during someone’s lifetime and that will be different for different people. Therefore flexibility in award durations is key and will allow decision-makers to tailor awards appropriately. Again, we will be working with disability organisations and disabled people to develop the necessary guidance to support these decisions over the next 12 months. There will be many chances to get this absolutely right in the months to come.

I must quote the noble Lord, Lord Touhig—who is not in his place—who quoted Lorna Wing, one of the founders of the National Autistic Society, who said, “When you have seen one person with autism, you have seen one person with autism”, which is a phrase that will remain with quite a few of us in the years to come. Our flexible approach should allow us to provide the support to meet the variable needs people have. We also recognise that the system needs to deal with fluctuating conditions and that is one of the things we need to really lock down in consultation in the next 12 months.

Even where awards of PIP are made for a fixed term and periodic reassessment is required, it will be proportionate. Some assessments may only involve scrutiny of paper evidence and will not require face-to-face consultation. That will particularly be the case where there is considerable supporting evidence on which to base decisions. Conditions or impairments that are lifelong or degenerative will have such supporting evidence. Clearly, we are going to provide guidance on the duration of an award, including when an ongoing award would be appropriate and with what frequency that award would be reviewed. That will be evidence-based and we are committed to coproducing it with the appropriate experts in the field. I assure noble Lords that we are keen to involve disabled people and their representatives in this process. We are determined to get it right.

I have to make the point that lifetime awards were abolished in 2001 and only in very rare circumstances would they be reviewed. At the moment in DLA, we have indefinite awards that can be reviewed at any time. On the other point raised by the noble Baroness, Lady Hollis, on the national benefit review, the only group excluded from that is the awards made to the terminally ill.

I hope that I have reassured noble Lords on the issue. There is still a lot of work to be done in this area. We will look to organisations that help us, including those with which the noble Lord, Lord Rix, is associated. However, before I ask him to withdraw his amendment, I must make clear the technicality that the Government do not consider that Amendment 56 is directly consequential on Amendment 55, so they are separate matters. I ask the noble Lord to withdraw his amendment.

[Lord Rix]

Yes, at this hour of the night. I would love to have further discussion, if it is humanly possible, with the Minister, but I would like to get something on paper to be able to circulate to the people concerned.

[Lord Freud]

I can certainly write to the noble Lord on this matter and see what we can do with the paperwork.

[Lord Rix]

With that, I beg leave to withdraw the amendment.

Amendment 55 withdrawn.

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[Lord Freud]

My Lords, the government amendments are intended to support our plans for a sensible, achievable and measured approach to the introduction of PIP and to report on the effectiveness of the assessment. I went into detail on what we are planning earlier this evening, so I do not need to dwell on it too long.

The first amendment will allow us to test the processes in a truly live environment and gives us the ability to control where those early new claims will come from. We are looking at which sites to use and developing the detail.

The second is designed to support our programme of examining how PIP works against the assessment. In summary, as I said, I propose to put into the Bill a statutory duty to publish two reports to Parliament—the first within two years from the time that PIP starts, the second within four years of that date. I also made the commitment earlier this evening, which I repeat, that if there is a need for a third review and report because of ongoing issues identified in the second review, we undertake to do that. That is a commitment to ensure that the assessment and its processes are working. We have slightly adapted the idea of doing that annually, which is what happens under WCA, because that has led to a slightly piecemeal approach. We think that two-year reviews will be better and we have learnt from that.

These are sensible and practical amendments. They are of course inspired by noble Lords in Committee, whose arguments convinced me. I have already put it on record that I think that Committee Members did a fantastic job and went through the Bill in an organised, diligent manner with astonishing energy. I have tried to take all the good ideas possible—some of them are not, but I am really pleased to be able to take this one.

The Government consider Amendment 56ZB to be directly consequential on Amendment 56ZA, but do not consider Amendment 70 in this group to be directly consequential on Amendment 56ZA. Despite that, I beg to move.

[Lord Rix]

My Lords, the Minister gave the shortest reply in Committee, interrupting my amendments, and I sat down within about three seconds of standing up. The noble Baroness, Lady Hollis—I have the name right this time—said that if the rest of the amendments could be taken at that speed, we would have got through the Committee stage much faster. I am absolutely delighted that the amendments have been modified but certainly accepted by the Government. I am very grateful.

Amendment 56ZA agreed.