Welfare Reform Bill

Lord Low of Dalston Excerpts

Tuesday 17th January 2012 Lords Chamber

Moved by

[Lord Low of Dalston]

54C: Clause 82, page 59, line 34, at end insert “other than by virtue of an award made before the person reaches the relevant age”

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[Lord Low of Dalston]

My Lords, this amendment would ensure that those who are awarded either the daily living component and/or the mobility component before pensionable age can continue to receive it after they reach pensionable age. Currently the Bill states that persons of pensionable age are entitled to neither award.

The matter was fully debated in Committee, when the argument was fully rehearsed, so I do not intend to speak to it at great length this evening. The noble Baroness, Lady Grey-Thompson, said in moving the same amendment in Committee—on 16 November at column 303 of Hansard—how the Disability Alliance and other charities were being approached regularly by disabled people worried about what the current proposals would mean when they reach pension age. She maintained that the amendment would clarify the position and put many minds at rest. She also drew the committee’s attention to the fact that the Dilnot commission highlighted the pivotal role that DLA plays in preventing high-level needs from escalating. Receiving DLA helps disabled people manage their health and prevents avoidable NHS costs or people entering residential care prematurely, or at all, with potential savings in the long run.

The noble Baroness understood that the Government intended to provide in regulations for those who received DLA before pension age to retain it after they reached pension age, but she said her concern was not allayed by the Minister for Disabled People stating in the Commons that the Government wanted the matter to be addressed in regulations to allow for flexibility. Such flexibility, she said, could easily include altering the entitlement in the future and denying support to disabled people reaching pensionable age. It would offer a significant boost in confidence for many disabled people, she said, to receive the reassurance in the Bill that their support will not be withdrawn when they reach pension age.

The Minister made it clear that the Government intended to make regulations for PIP that will allow people who have reached the upper age limit to continue to receive PIP. He said:

“Our priority is to support those individuals with established, long-term health conditions or impairments that would put them at a financial disadvantage over a long period … The intention behind this amendment is to ensure ongoing support throughout later life for individuals whose abilities are limited earlier in life, recognising that they may have had less opportunity to earn and save for later life. I can assure noble Lords that this is also our intention and that it can be achieved without amendment to the Bill, but instead through regulations. As it currently stands, the amendment would potentially widen the scope of personal independence payment and undermine our intention of creating a more affordable and sustainable benefit”.—[Official Report, 16/11/2011; cols. GC 304-05.]

He also made clear the Government’s intention of replicating, under PIP, the one-year linking rule which operates under the DLA regime, which allows individuals over 65 to renew an award within one year of their previous award, without losing DLA entitlement.

The matter seems quite straightforward. The assurance that those who have DLA when they reach pension age can keep it is provided in current legislation. The Government propose to remove this insurance in the Bill before us. They say that they will maintain the guarantee in regulations, but we all know that regulations can be changed much more easily than primary legislation. What possible motive can the Government have for removing from the Bill the guarantee to pensioners? One cannot blame people for asking the question or for being suspicious of the answer.

If the Government intend to give the assurance in regulations, what skin would it be off the Minister's nose to give it in the Bill? In circumstances where he needs all the confidence-building measures he can devise to take disabled people with him through the legislation, this would be an obvious and cost-free concession. The Minister referred to an earlier amendment as being the priciest yet. Surely this is the cheapest. If the wording needs to be fine-tuned in order to avoid widening the scope of PIP, I would be entirely amenable to working with him to find the appropriate wording before Third Reading. I beg to move.

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[Lord Low of Dalston]

My Lords, I declared my interest as a DLA recipient when I first entered the debate on PIP before dinner. However, in view of the particular relevance of this amendment to my own situation, I ought to have made it clear, like the noble Baroness, Lady Wilkins, that I have received DLA from its inception and continue to receive it now that I am past pension age.

Obviously, at this time of night, I am not going to press the amendment and will seek leave to withdraw it. However, I have to confess that I am not entirely convinced by the Minister’s answer. The strongest point he made was that, in the way it is drafted, the amendment could override linking rules and enable somebody who had received DLA a considerable length of time before he reached pension age successfully to resuscitate a claim to PIP after he reached pension age. That would not be our intention and, as I said in moving the amendment, if we could resolve that and any other matters of mis-wording to which the Minister could draw my attention by Third Reading, I would be very happy to have discussions with him and his officials.

[Lord Freud]

Perhaps I may make the position clear. The difference between us is that we would not want this in the Bill but the substance of what we are trying to do matches what the noble Lord is looking for. I am not in a position to offer anything further for Third Reading. I am, however, very willing to see him personally—and any groups he wants as well—to discuss this matter when we move into the spring period to make sure that we get it absolutely right. We are anyway having full consultation, but I am absolutely prepared to commit to looking at this so that the detailed regulations are acceptable.

[Lord Low of Dalston]

The trouble is that by the spring consultation the Bill will be done and dusted and we will have missed the opportunity. However, on the basis that the Minister is happy to meet us to discuss this matter further and perhaps bottom it more than we are able to do at this time of night, I beg leave to withdraw the amendment.

Amendment 54C withdrawn.

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[Lord Rix]

My Lords, as Mencap has just been mentioned, I would very much like, as president of Mencap, to thank the Minister and his colleagues for accepting this situation and the Low report. I congratulate my noble friend Lord Low on his splendid research into this problem. It is wonderful to hear the Government’s change of tack. I notice that the Minister mentioned hospitals, but I was busy chatting to the noble Baroness, Lady Hollins, at that moment. Did he mention children? I was not quite sure what the position was going to be regarding children—over 16 and under 16—in regard to this mobility component. However, apart from that, we are very satisfied in Mencap. I would like to thank, both personally and on behalf of Mencap, the Minister and his colleagues for this change of heart.

[Lord Low of Dalston]

My Lords, I promised the Minister earlier on that if he just waited long enough, sweetness and light would break out. The fact that the noble Lord, Lord McKenzie, and I have our names on another amendment in this group enables me to tell him that we have now reached that point.

There is more joy in heaven over one sinner that repenteth than over 99 just persons who need no repentance. For that reason, I greatly welcome the Government’s decision to drop their proposal to withdraw the mobility component from those living in residential care. I have been given some credit for bringing this about with the review that I was asked to lead by Leonard Cheshire Disability and Mencap, but I think, in all honesty, I must disclaim this. Half of that is because I had a very good team working with me, supported by an extremely able and hard-working secretariat from both organisations; and half because I think Ministers, to their considerable credit, largely came to their decision of their own accord. Perhaps I may have provided a little cover for a U-turn—if so, I am glad to have been of service.

It would be tedious if I were to start recycling all the water that has now flowed under the bridge by rehearsing the considerations that led both the Government and my review to come to the conclusion that it would not be appropriate to withdraw the mobility component from those living in residential care. Probably the most significant of them, as has been mentioned, was that we could not detect any evidence of the double funding that was thought to exist and the Government could not either.

The Government can be proud of the fact that on this occasion, when faced with the evidence that did not support their initial conclusion, they had the grace to acknowledge the fact and reverse that initial conclusion. This is very much to be welcomed and a matter for congratulation.

[Lord Freud]

My Lords, I should take the opportunity to say thank you. It is lovely to have some sweetness and light after a few days where there has not been very much.