Anti-social Behaviour, Crime and Policing Bill

Lord Redesdale Excerpts

Monday 2nd December 2013 Lords Chamber

In conclusion, the increase in dog-related deaths in recent years is extremely sad and worrying. These amendments seek to include effective, clear measures in legislation to deal specifically with the problems caused by dangerous dogs, as opposed to hoping that they can be mopped up in an order, the terms of which could be rather vague in their application to dangerous dogs. I hope that the Minister will look favourably on these amendments and consider, first, the issue of dog control notices. However, if there is no possibility of movement on that, the issue of review is extremely important. I beg to move.

[Lord Redesdale (LD)]

My Lords, the words of the noble Baroness, Lady Smith, were music to my ears because I have introduced two Private Members’ Bills about dog control notices—one under the Government of the party opposite and one under the coalition. Funnily enough, I got a completely different response from the party opposite on both occasions.

[Baroness Smith of Basildon]

I am sorry, I was not here then.

[Lord Redesdale]

Of course. It is interesting how things develop. That is probably the purpose of this House. Private Member’s Bills do get the ball rolling. When I started on my first Bill, it was written with all the dog organisations and the RSPCA. It had a great deal of support, but not from the Government. The second time I raised it, after all the publicity, a great deal more work had been undertaken by Defra, and I think that has led to the present situation.

I would have liked a separate piece of legislation which would have been clear and concise. I understand the Minister’s position—that this has gone through the Home Office. The problem is that most Governments would have taken the route that has been followed, because we are dealing with 11 pieces of legislation that would have to be amended. For ease of access, it would have been extremely useful if there had been one dog control notice, but those of us who have been fighting this fight for some years now realised that that probably was not going to be the case.

I support the background to these amendments. However, there are a couple of issues that I wish to raise. I do not believe that these amendments are going to be carried but they show some of the fundamental problems that we are facing. One of the major problems is the Dangerous Dogs Act 1991. That was a knee-jerk reaction which led to types of dogs being named. Amendment 56LF talks about trying to work out what prohibited dogs are; for instance, a pit bull is actually a mongrel, so is very difficult to define as a particular type of dog. Breeders of pit bulls call them long-legged Staffies; they attempt to get round it that way. An expert trying to look at this has had difficulty, and it has cost the Metropolitan Police and the police in Liverpool and in other places millions of pounds kennelling those animals. I know that this is a specific point but there are cost implications of trying to work out within 48 hours whether the dog is a prohibited animal. Behavioural assessment will also cause difficulties because a lot of this work will fall to the dog charities. At the moment they are facing a massive problem with bull breeds being abandoned.

The issue of protected animals is raised in these amendments and we might well come back to it in further pieces of legislation. It is a particularly difficult issue to deal with. I have a rather useless and cowardly dog, but next door’s cat is particularly on his wish list. I do everything I can to try to stop him chasing this cat, but if a cat were seen as a protected animal—which it is not at the moment, though I know some people are calling for it—that would be a problem we would have to look at.

I understand the tenor of these amendments, and that this is an issue that we may return to further down the line if the Bill does not achieve its objectives. The Government deserve commendation for the attitude taken by the Minister and by the noble Lord, Lord De Mauley, who met and worked closely with us. That the guidance runs to more than 100 pages is a problem, because who is going to read it? If people do not read and understand the guidance and realise where it fits with other pieces of legislation, there is going to be a problem of enforcement. I have to admit that I found it difficult just reading the Bill and cross-referencing it. I hope that the Minister will consider attaching a very short précis to the start of the guidance to make the issue simpler.

[Baroness Gale (Lab)]

My Lords, I rise to speak to Amendment 56MA, which has already been mentioned by my noble friend Lady Smith and I hope to elaborate on what she had to say.

The Minister will be aware that many organisations and individuals have campaigned for dog control notices, including the RSPCA, the Communication Workers Union, and individuals such as Dilwar Ali, whose six year-old son was badly injured when a dog attacked him in his garden, and the parents of Jade Lomas-Anderson, who was killed in an attack by dogs earlier this year. I had the privilege of meeting them recently when they gave Peers a briefing on why they feel so strongly about the necessity for dog control notices. I am sure that the Peers who were present will agree that the meeting with Jade’s parents was an emotional one. They are determined campaigners and they certainly convinced me that dog control notices should be implemented rather than community protection notices, which I know are the Government’s preference. Dilwar Ali is an equally passionate campaigner for dog control notices following the horrific attack on his six year-old son. The Minister will be aware that the Communication Workers Union has campaigned for dog control notices in order to have some level of protection for postmen and postwomen, thousands of whom are attacked by dogs as they deliver the mail.

The Government believe that community protection notices will be a sufficient measure when it comes to addressing a range of anti-social behaviour problems, including attacks by dangerous dogs, and promoting responsible dog ownership. The use of a CPN in conjunction with an acceptable behaviour contract is meant to have a similar impact to issuing a dog control notice. However, it is clear that community protection notices are inadequate. Their shortcoming lies in their broad application. The Commons EFRA Select Committee concluded in February 2013 that many charities and organisations, including the RSPCA, the Kennel Club, Battersea Dogs and Cats Home, the Dogs Trust and the Communication Workers Union, have consistently argued that CPNs are too little too late and that they are not specific enough.

The Bill states that CPNs will address issues of a “persistent or continuing nature”. In practice, they will be issued only after an attack has taken place. Therefore, for a CPN to be issued, an existing complaint needs to have been made about a detrimental impact on the quality of life of the community, and it may mean a costly, painful and bureaucratic investigation and prosecution process for victims as much as for local councils.

A dog control notice would target irresponsible ownership directly and would be pre-emptive. That is vital when it comes to tackling dog-related incidents. Preventive measures address much earlier both repeat offenders and one-off attacks affecting individuals. We believe that the measures set out in our amendment are far superior to CPNs, as they are specifically aimed at dogs. The RSPCA’s statistics fully support this conclusion. In England and Wales in 2012 it issued 12,658 informal advice notices, which, in practice, are similar to DCNs. The compliance rate was 93%. That is a very high percentage and shows that these notices can work.

The Minister and noble Lords will be aware that in Northern Ireland the use of dog control orders in conjunction with dog licensing has been very successful. The presence of dog wardens employed full time by local authorities has also been very effective. Therefore, Northern Ireland has dog control orders, and Scotland has implemented them. The Welsh Government would have implemented them. However, the Minister will be aware that the Welsh Government withdrew their Bill in favour of the Wales and England legislation that we have before us today, although they do not believe that the Bill covers everything that their Bill would have done. I believe that they will have the right to come back to the Minister and that they are probably in discussion with him. Cardiff county councillors recently briefed me on the consultation which, because they are concerned about it, they have carried out regarding dangerous dogs in Cardiff.

--- Later in debate ---

[Baroness Oppenheim-Barnes]

My noble friend knows how highly I regard him, but I really do not think I shall accept his invitation, which was made so gallantly.

I hope that my noble friend the Minister will have realised that this problem has continued to grow and grow since the 1991 Act, the passage of which I vaguely remember taking part in. The great problem with that Act was the naming of certain types of dog. It was also mentioned, at Second Reading, that there are now dog psychiatrists and that naughty dogs can sometimes have their whole behaviour changed. I have known only one of those and I will, wisely, not give the Committee his name. He was brought in because my two were little puppies and we had to find out who the strong one was. The strong one took one look at him, did not fancy him very much and turned away, taking no notice. The little flibbertigibbet did all these little clever things in front of him and he said, “Ooh, that is the main dog. That dog is certainly going to be the leader of the pack”. He subsequently wrote a chapter in his book in which he named my two “the terrible twins”. He based this on an incident when I was walking around with them on the lead at the local dog show. They had seen a Weimaraner that had attacked them in the past and they must have been very nervous. Everybody was laughing and when I looked around it was because one was on top of the other. That is why he called them the “terrible Oppenheim twins”. If you ever pick that book up, please put it down again and do not buy it.

This is a serious debate, on a serious matter, on which there is enormously strong feeling about things that can never be put right afterwards. I implore my noble friend to take note of what has been said and to try to meet, before Third Reading, the more modest proposals debated this evening.

[Lord Redesdale]

My Lords, I support and thank my noble friend Lady Oppenheim-Barnes, who has been a stalwart in the campaign on this over many years. There are problems with the amendment but it raises an important issue that we will come back to. After many years of discussion, the issue remains that some people use dogs as a way of intimidating others. This can take place even if the dog is on the lead and in a muzzle, because the person is using the dog for effect, so the muzzle is not a barrier to intimidation. I understand that this is a very difficult area to legislate in, but I hope the Minister will take into account that intimidation can be caused even if the dog is on a lead and muzzled.

[Baroness Smith of Basildon]

My Lords, I agree that the noble Baroness, Lady Oppenheim-Barnes, is making a serious point about how the victim, or potential victim, feels when an owner is not in control of a dog. I am grateful for her comments and although she said something about the wording here, I was grateful for her support for dog control notices. None of us guarantees that we have absolutely the right wording. We may be able to have discussions, outside the Chamber, on wording that is accurate and would suit the Government well. The noble Lord does not want to see dog control notices but we may be able to make some improvements by discussing the matter further. I am grateful for the noble Baroness’s comments and support.