Licensing Act 2003 (Her Majesty The Queen’s Birthday Licensing Hours) Order 2016
Lord Redesdale Excerpts(8 years, 6 months ago)
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Lord Redesdale (LD)
My Lords, I must declare an interest in that I own a pub: the Redesdale Arms, on the A68 in Northumberland. It is a particularly fine establishment that serves excellent beer and wine. We will obviously be opening late on the Queen’s Birthday, and I do not see that event being the subject of a massive punch-up. I cannot see it being anything other than a quiet or celebratory event.
I find it interesting that the question of extra resources has been raised. I was on the Front Bench during the passage of the 2003 Act, which the then Labour Government introduced to extend licensing hours and liberalise the licensing regime. It seems to go against that now to say that extra costs will be involved. We on this Bench support this order. However, I think that the 2003 Act was extremely regulatory in nature. The whole area of event notices has introduced enormous extra costs, with many live music venues shutting down as a result.
We had one victory during the passage of the 2003 Act. I had tabled four amendments against the Government to ensure that unamplified live music should not have to be licensed, as I thought that such activity was a human right. The Government responded by saying that morris dancing would be exempt from the legislation. That was obviously a massive step forward and I thanked the Government for it—in fact, 600 morris dancers danced in Trafalgar Square that November in celebration of it. We support the order, but I wonder whether it is not time to review the provisions of the 2003 Act, not to increase regulation but to try to decrease its burden on publicans, especially in the area of live music.
Lord Keen of Elie
My Lords, I noticed the anxiety of the noble Lord, Lord Rosser, not to appear as a killjoy, albeit his attempts were somewhat tempered by subsequent observations. I am sure that, like those in another place, we will all welcome the opportunity to celebrate Her Majesty’s 90th birthday in June of this year and the proposals put forward in this order.
Perhaps I may address the points raised by the noble Lord, Lord Rosser, in this context. It will be noted, as the noble Lord did note, that there was a consultation on this matter. The Government’s intention was that that should be a proportionate consultation. It included the national policing lead for alcohol, who came out in favour of the proposal for the extension of licensing hours. It was therefore necessary to balance the views of all the parties that we had consulted. The purpose of having a consultation is to get diverse views and to balance them before arriving at an informed conclusion. That is precisely what the Government did in this case.
There was no question of swatting aside observations. There was no question of abruptly dismissing the representations made by any party that responded to the consultation. An informed decision was made in the light of the responses to the consultation. In that context, regard was had to past experience, which is a guide in these circumstances. Past experience indicated that there was no general extent of disorder greater than that found where such an extension had not been granted. That was based on our experience on the two or three previous occasions where such an order had been granted.
The noble Lord, Lord Rosser, asked whether we had actively sought representations about previous reports of problems. We actively engaged in a consultation process with parties which would have been informed of these matters and would have brought them to our attention had they thought it appropriate. I emphasise again that those parties included the national policing lead for alcohol. So, in that context, it did not appear that there would be, or had been in the past, a major impact from such an extension of licensing hours that would require material increases in the police response to it. It is in this context that we say that while there may be some additional policing costs, there is no evidence of any material increase in costs that would impact upon existing police budgets. In these circumstances, we consider that the approach taken was entirely appropriate.
I am not in a position to give figures for the number of premises that will respond to the opportunity to open, because it will be a matter for each individual set of premises to decide whether or not it is going to take advantage of this in order to allow its local community to engage in a responsible social and celebratory occasion in respect of Her Majesty’s birthday. Some may not, but nevertheless it is appropriate that the opportunity should be given to all.
In these circumstances, I suggest that there is no need to carry out any further impact assessment. On that final point, I note that on the occasion of the Diamond Jubilee, the assessment was that there would be a saving to business of between £240,000 and £480,000 as a result of parties not having to pay the fee for a temporary event notice. In addition to that, there is the burden on local licensing authorities of having to process each and every one of those individual applications.
With respect to the matter raised by the noble Lord, Lord Redesdale, the Government are committed to reducing burdens on business wherever possible, as has been shown in the legislation we have taken forward in the Government. However, there are no present plans to review the 2003 Act.
Anti-social Behaviour, Crime and Policing Bill
Lord Redesdale Excerpts(10 years, 10 months ago)
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Baroness Gale (Lab)
My Lords, Amendment 86A has been tabled in my name and that of my noble friend Lady Donaghy, who is unfortunately unable to be here this evening. I spoke to a similar amendment in Committee and wish to raise the matter of dog control notices once again.
My main reason for doing so is that organisations involved in this field still feel very strongly that dog control notices, rather than what is proposed in the Bill, are the best way forward. Those organisations include the RSPCA, the Kennel Club, Battersea Dogs & Cats Home, the Dogs Trust and the Communication Workers Union, as well as individual campaigners, many of whom have suffered as a result of attacks by dogs and, in some cases, have seen their loved ones killed in dog attacks. They have consistently argued that community protection notices will not work as well as dog control notices and strongly feel that we need dog control notices rather than the community protection notices which the Government propose.
The Government believe that community protection notices will be sufficient to address a range of anti-social behaviour problems including dangerous dog attacks and the need to promote responsible dog ownership. The use of a CPN, in conjunction with an acceptable behaviour contract, is meant to have a similar impact to issuing a dog control notice. The Bill states that CPNs will address issues of,
“a persistent or continuing nature”.
In practice, however, CPNs will be issued only after an attack has taken place and a written notice has been issued. A CPN requires that there be an existing complaint about a detrimental impact on a community’s quality of life, and it could involve a costly, painful and bureaucratic prosecution and investigation process for victims as well as for local councils.
Dog control notices directly target irresponsible ownership and will be pre-emptive. The preventive measures they contain address both repeat offenders and one-off attacks which affect individuals, not just communities, much earlier on. I believe that DCNs would be a better approach and the RSPCA’s statistics fully support that conclusion. In 2012 the RSPCA issued more than 12,000 informal advice notices—which in practice are similar to DCNs—in England and Wales. The compliance rate was 93%, an extremely high figure which was maintained at around that level for a number of years. The numbers show that DCNs not only work but work well.
In 2012, dog attacks cost the NHS more than £9.5 million. I said in Committee that 17 people have been killed by dogs since 2005, including nine children, but that figure has now increased and, sadly, 19 people have been killed. It is estimated that more than 200,000 people are attacked every year, with more than 6,000 injuries treated by the NHS in 2011-12. One in six of those attacks were on children under 10.
The issue of dog control cannot be dealt with under this catch-all policy. Many charities and organisations have spent much time and effort trying to educate the public about responsible dog ownership and many dog owners have responded to that. Most dog owners do their best to care not just for their dog but also about their dog’s behaviour. Owners must be held responsible for dogs that cause problems.
In Northern Ireland, the use of dog control orders in conjunction with dog licensing has been very successful. Has the Minister looked at how it works in Northern Ireland, and can we learn lessons from that experience? Can he say why he is so adamant on this point? He has listened to the campaigning organisations, but why has he failed to impress on them a belief that CPNs are better than DCNs? The individuals and organisations which have been campaigning are the experts in this area, and the individuals concerned have strong personal reasons for campaigning on it. If community protection notices rather than DCNs are included in the Bill, can the Minister say what sort of publicity and additional funding will be provided to ensure that we have the best possible outcome in reducing the number of dog attacks and safeguarding people against dog attacks in future? We are all aiming to achieve that objective in this Bill and the orders. I beg to move.
Lord Redesdale (LD)
My Lords, I feel a little torn, having read the amendment, because I would heartily support it. In fact, I proposed two Private Member’s Bills which set out many of the provisions in the amendment. I would support the amendment, but we are where we are, with the Government having proposed the legislation. I have been working with organisations such as the Dogs Trust, the Kennel Club, Blue Cross and others for four or five years now, so I know their commitment to dog control notices. I believe that the Government have taken on board a large number of the arguments put forward. The department should be commended for the amount of work it has done to listen and to propose amendments to deal with some of the concerns raised about the Bill as drafted.
The noble Baroness, Lady Gale, has a very good point. It would be wrong not to say that I think in my heart that dog control notices would be an excellent idea. However, I believe that the Bill will now go a great deal of the way to meeting many of the assessments that we set out. It sets out to defend assisted dogs for the blind. It sets out to deal with the issue of dog attacks in private residences. It sets out clearly in the guidance how the local authority should try to deal with many of the issues.
Obviously, this is a complicated piece of legislation and we are changing 11 other pieces of legislation to fit it in. I would have preferred a separate piece of legislation on dogs. However, that was met with hostility from all sides of the House when I raised it a number of times—
Lord Redesdale
Of course not; the noble Baroness is quite right, we did not clash on that occasion. I believe that the Government have listened and the position has moved forward. I know that many organisations would have preferred dog control notices. However, the work that the Government have put in to making the guidance a readable and understandable document and the flexibility of the department in ensuring that it is a workable document, should—this is, of course, the aim—reduce the number of dog attacks. It should also go some way to addressing the real problems introduced by the Dangerous Dogs Act 1991 in causing animal welfare issues for so many dogs and so many problems for a lot of owners throughout the country.
Lord Trees (CB)
My Lords, I shall speak to Amendments 86B and 86C, which propose to extend and strengthen the protection to any protected animal. As Amendment 86A also refers to “any protected animal”, it is reasonable to group the three amendments, but I make the point that even if dog control notices are not accepted, there is still a case under the Bill to extend protection to animals in addition to assistance dogs; I should like briefly to make that case.
The Bill has the commendable aim of seeking to encourage responsible dog ownership and management in a preventive way to reduce attacks on and injury to humans. It extends protection to assistance dogs, which is welcome, presumably on the grounds that they are very important to their owners and perhaps also because such attacks may be indicative of a lack of control of those other dogs which might ultimately present a hazard to humans. I would argue that those same points apply to any pet, and especially dogs and cats.
The social benefit of pets to their owners is well known and acknowledged. Attacks on dogs or cats by a particular dog may well indicate a lack of control on the part of that dog owner and may presage serious attacks on humans.
Anti-social Behaviour, Crime and Policing Bill
Lord Redesdale Excerpts(10 years, 11 months ago)
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Lord Redesdale (LD)
My Lords, the words of the noble Baroness, Lady Smith, were music to my ears because I have introduced two Private Members’ Bills about dog control notices—one under the Government of the party opposite and one under the coalition. Funnily enough, I got a completely different response from the party opposite on both occasions.
Lord Redesdale
Of course. It is interesting how things develop. That is probably the purpose of this House. Private Member’s Bills do get the ball rolling. When I started on my first Bill, it was written with all the dog organisations and the RSPCA. It had a great deal of support, but not from the Government. The second time I raised it, after all the publicity, a great deal more work had been undertaken by Defra, and I think that has led to the present situation.
I would have liked a separate piece of legislation which would have been clear and concise. I understand the Minister’s position—that this has gone through the Home Office. The problem is that most Governments would have taken the route that has been followed, because we are dealing with 11 pieces of legislation that would have to be amended. For ease of access, it would have been extremely useful if there had been one dog control notice, but those of us who have been fighting this fight for some years now realised that that probably was not going to be the case.
I support the background to these amendments. However, there are a couple of issues that I wish to raise. I do not believe that these amendments are going to be carried but they show some of the fundamental problems that we are facing. One of the major problems is the Dangerous Dogs Act 1991. That was a knee-jerk reaction which led to types of dogs being named. Amendment 56LF talks about trying to work out what prohibited dogs are; for instance, a pit bull is actually a mongrel, so is very difficult to define as a particular type of dog. Breeders of pit bulls call them long-legged Staffies; they attempt to get round it that way. An expert trying to look at this has had difficulty, and it has cost the Metropolitan Police and the police in Liverpool and in other places millions of pounds kennelling those animals. I know that this is a specific point but there are cost implications of trying to work out within 48 hours whether the dog is a prohibited animal. Behavioural assessment will also cause difficulties because a lot of this work will fall to the dog charities. At the moment they are facing a massive problem with bull breeds being abandoned.
The issue of protected animals is raised in these amendments and we might well come back to it in further pieces of legislation. It is a particularly difficult issue to deal with. I have a rather useless and cowardly dog, but next door’s cat is particularly on his wish list. I do everything I can to try to stop him chasing this cat, but if a cat were seen as a protected animal—which it is not at the moment, though I know some people are calling for it—that would be a problem we would have to look at.
I understand the tenor of these amendments, and that this is an issue that we may return to further down the line if the Bill does not achieve its objectives. The Government deserve commendation for the attitude taken by the Minister and by the noble Lord, Lord De Mauley, who met and worked closely with us. That the guidance runs to more than 100 pages is a problem, because who is going to read it? If people do not read and understand the guidance and realise where it fits with other pieces of legislation, there is going to be a problem of enforcement. I have to admit that I found it difficult just reading the Bill and cross-referencing it. I hope that the Minister will consider attaching a very short précis to the start of the guidance to make the issue simpler.
Baroness Gale (Lab)
My Lords, I rise to speak to Amendment 56MA, which has already been mentioned by my noble friend Lady Smith and I hope to elaborate on what she had to say.
The Minister will be aware that many organisations and individuals have campaigned for dog control notices, including the RSPCA, the Communication Workers Union, and individuals such as Dilwar Ali, whose six year-old son was badly injured when a dog attacked him in his garden, and the parents of Jade Lomas-Anderson, who was killed in an attack by dogs earlier this year. I had the privilege of meeting them recently when they gave Peers a briefing on why they feel so strongly about the necessity for dog control notices. I am sure that the Peers who were present will agree that the meeting with Jade’s parents was an emotional one. They are determined campaigners and they certainly convinced me that dog control notices should be implemented rather than community protection notices, which I know are the Government’s preference. Dilwar Ali is an equally passionate campaigner for dog control notices following the horrific attack on his six year-old son. The Minister will be aware that the Communication Workers Union has campaigned for dog control notices in order to have some level of protection for postmen and postwomen, thousands of whom are attacked by dogs as they deliver the mail.
The Government believe that community protection notices will be a sufficient measure when it comes to addressing a range of anti-social behaviour problems, including attacks by dangerous dogs, and promoting responsible dog ownership. The use of a CPN in conjunction with an acceptable behaviour contract is meant to have a similar impact to issuing a dog control notice. However, it is clear that community protection notices are inadequate. Their shortcoming lies in their broad application. The Commons EFRA Select Committee concluded in February 2013 that many charities and organisations, including the RSPCA, the Kennel Club, Battersea Dogs and Cats Home, the Dogs Trust and the Communication Workers Union, have consistently argued that CPNs are too little too late and that they are not specific enough.
The Bill states that CPNs will address issues of a “persistent or continuing nature”. In practice, they will be issued only after an attack has taken place. Therefore, for a CPN to be issued, an existing complaint needs to have been made about a detrimental impact on the quality of life of the community, and it may mean a costly, painful and bureaucratic investigation and prosecution process for victims as much as for local councils.
A dog control notice would target irresponsible ownership directly and would be pre-emptive. That is vital when it comes to tackling dog-related incidents. Preventive measures address much earlier both repeat offenders and one-off attacks affecting individuals. We believe that the measures set out in our amendment are far superior to CPNs, as they are specifically aimed at dogs. The RSPCA’s statistics fully support this conclusion. In England and Wales in 2012 it issued 12,658 informal advice notices, which, in practice, are similar to DCNs. The compliance rate was 93%. That is a very high percentage and shows that these notices can work.
The Minister and noble Lords will be aware that in Northern Ireland the use of dog control orders in conjunction with dog licensing has been very successful. The presence of dog wardens employed full time by local authorities has also been very effective. Therefore, Northern Ireland has dog control orders, and Scotland has implemented them. The Welsh Government would have implemented them. However, the Minister will be aware that the Welsh Government withdrew their Bill in favour of the Wales and England legislation that we have before us today, although they do not believe that the Bill covers everything that their Bill would have done. I believe that they will have the right to come back to the Minister and that they are probably in discussion with him. Cardiff county councillors recently briefed me on the consultation which, because they are concerned about it, they have carried out regarding dangerous dogs in Cardiff.
Baroness Oppenheim-Barnes
My noble friend knows how highly I regard him, but I really do not think I shall accept his invitation, which was made so gallantly.
I hope that my noble friend the Minister will have realised that this problem has continued to grow and grow since the 1991 Act, the passage of which I vaguely remember taking part in. The great problem with that Act was the naming of certain types of dog. It was also mentioned, at Second Reading, that there are now dog psychiatrists and that naughty dogs can sometimes have their whole behaviour changed. I have known only one of those and I will, wisely, not give the Committee his name. He was brought in because my two were little puppies and we had to find out who the strong one was. The strong one took one look at him, did not fancy him very much and turned away, taking no notice. The little flibbertigibbet did all these little clever things in front of him and he said, “Ooh, that is the main dog. That dog is certainly going to be the leader of the pack”. He subsequently wrote a chapter in his book in which he named my two “the terrible twins”. He based this on an incident when I was walking around with them on the lead at the local dog show. They had seen a Weimaraner that had attacked them in the past and they must have been very nervous. Everybody was laughing and when I looked around it was because one was on top of the other. That is why he called them the “terrible Oppenheim twins”. If you ever pick that book up, please put it down again and do not buy it.
This is a serious debate, on a serious matter, on which there is enormously strong feeling about things that can never be put right afterwards. I implore my noble friend to take note of what has been said and to try to meet, before Third Reading, the more modest proposals debated this evening.
Lord Redesdale
My Lords, I support and thank my noble friend Lady Oppenheim-Barnes, who has been a stalwart in the campaign on this over many years. There are problems with the amendment but it raises an important issue that we will come back to. After many years of discussion, the issue remains that some people use dogs as a way of intimidating others. This can take place even if the dog is on the lead and in a muzzle, because the person is using the dog for effect, so the muzzle is not a barrier to intimidation. I understand that this is a very difficult area to legislate in, but I hope the Minister will take into account that intimidation can be caused even if the dog is on a lead and muzzled.
Baroness Smith of Basildon
My Lords, I agree that the noble Baroness, Lady Oppenheim-Barnes, is making a serious point about how the victim, or potential victim, feels when an owner is not in control of a dog. I am grateful for her comments and although she said something about the wording here, I was grateful for her support for dog control notices. None of us guarantees that we have absolutely the right wording. We may be able to have discussions, outside the Chamber, on wording that is accurate and would suit the Government well. The noble Lord does not want to see dog control notices but we may be able to make some improvements by discussing the matter further. I am grateful for the noble Baroness’s comments and support.
Anti-social Behaviour, Crime and Policing Bill
Lord Redesdale Excerpts(11 years ago)
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Lord Greaves (LD)
My Lords, in moving Amendment 35, I will speak to the other 14 amendments in this group as well. All but the last of these amendments, which was tagged on, are about the extent to which there should be consultation and advertising of public spaces protection orders before they are made and to what extent they should be publicised afterwards. What is in the Bill at the moment is pretty rudimentary.
The amendment made by the Government in the last group improved matters a little. However, Clause 55(7) states:
“A local authority making a public spaces protection order must before doing so consult the chief officer of police, and the local policing body, for the police area that includes the restricted area”.
That is fair enough. Paragraph (b) states that it must consult,
“whatever community representatives the local authority thinks it appropriate to consult”.
That is either very broad or very narrow, but we will hear what the Minister has to say.
In addition, the local authority has to publicise the proposal. The interesting question is, what does that now mean? Again, it could be done simply by putting a tiny advert in an obscure part of a not-very-widely-read newspaper, or by splashing it all over the place, on its website and everywhere else. The question is, will what local authorities are expected to do also be in the guidance? Would it not be better to have some basic proposals in the Bill—which is what my amendments try to ensure?
The first six amendments are about making public spaces protection orders. The remainder, apart from the last one, raise the same questions in relation to extensions, variations and removals of orders—what the legislation calls “discharges”. As far as consultations are concerned, Amendment 35 says that the owner of the land must be consulted. The Minister may tell us, “Of course the owner of the land will be told what is going on”, but it does not say so in the Bill. Whether the owner of a particular piece of land is a community representative may be a question of doubt. The owner may live in Wellington, New Zealand, in Vladivostok, or anywhere. However, if orders will be made that restrict the activities that members of the public can undertake on a particular piece of land, the owner of the land should be consulted about that before the order is made.
Amendment 36 probes what is meant by “community representatives”. Will the guidance tell us? The amendment would take that out, but only in order to probe what it means. Amendment 37 says that the county council—the highways authority in two-tier areas—should be consulted as one of the main local authorities. The county will think that it is the major local authority. The district may disagree, but nevertheless, the county council clearly should be consulted, particularly if the public spaces protection order affects a highway. The county is the highways authority—it is responsible for that highway—and it may well have a view as to whether activities should be restricted or whether people should be banned from going on that highway, if it is a right of way. The amendment also says that parish councils should be consulted.
I have put down amendment after amendment about parish councils and I sometimes think that the people who write legislation in central London—in Westminster and Whitehall—do not have much experience of them. I know that the Minister has huge experience of parish councils, because he lives in a part of the world in Lincolnshire that is rife with them, and quite rightly so. People may say, “Some parish councils are rubbish”, but some are brilliant. When it comes to dealing with things such as local environmental crime on a small but irritating level, or with anti-social behaviour, parish councils have an essential role to play. They are at the heart of communities and can help to stop it happening.
I propose simply that if a public spaces protection order is being made on land within a parish, surely that parish council should be consulted. The Minister may say, “Yes, the parish council is certainly the community representative, and will therefore be consulted”. I would like at the very least the assurance that that will be in the guidance. Unfortunately some district councils do not like parish councils, not even their own, and go out of their way to keep them out of things.
Amendment 38, which is quite complicated, sets out rules for advertising the proposal, making copies available, and considering representations and objections. It also says that the decision should be made in public, because some of those decisions will be very controversial, and they should not simply be made by a delegated authority to an officer or to a cabinet member who makes the decision without having to justify it to people who wish to support it or protest against it. Amendment 39 says that once a public spaces protection order has been made it has to be published and should be open to inspection. The Minister may tell me, “Of course that will happen—it will be in the guidance”. I look forward to that.
Finally, Amendment 56ZC covers a rather different area. It is an amendment which probes what the term “community representative” means, and whether it can mean a regional or national body that is perhaps called in by local people for some expertise. Again, I think, for example, of the Ramblers or the Open Spaces Society, which might be brought in if there is a proposal to close a right of way by a public spaces protection order. If the normal procedures for closing rights of way were to be carried through, through the highways legislation or the Wildlife and Countryside Act, that would happen automatically.
The danger is that this legislation may provide a shortcut that local authorities will find very attractive. I am not sure that “shortcut” is the right word; it should aim to close a shortcut which may be highly controversial. One ought to be able to bring in experts in the field. Nowadays, it is not difficult to consult organisations. In the old days, you had to print off another copy of a letter, put it in an envelope, put a stamp on it and post it off. Nowadays, you do not do that; you just have an easy distribution list on your computer and you send it off to everybody, so there is no excuse for limiting and restricting the number of people who should be consulted and should be able to make representations. I sit on a local committee which deals with rights of way questions. Usually, the people who make representations to us are local people. If it is the Ramblers Association, it is a local branch of that association. However, sometimes the issue is more controversial and difficult, and national organisations get involved. These national organisations may be heritage organisations or amenity organisations. All sorts of organisations get involved on behalf of local people who have asked them to do so. Excluding them, which is what this section of the Bill seems to do, is ridiculous. I look forward to the Minister’s response, as ever. I beg to move Amendment 35.
Lord Redesdale (LD)
My Lords, I support my noble friend, especially on Amendments 38 and 56ZC. I raise the vexed issue of dogs and am happy that my first interjection on the Bill concerns that issue—indeed, I have been looking forward to it—in the context of public spaces protection orders. I think that many local authorities will consider introducing such orders to ban bull breeds of dogs from green spaces. Many people may support such a measure but an animal welfare issue is involved. If local authorities decide to ban a specific breed of dog, who will enforce it and where will those dogs be walked? Making such orders would be popular and therefore many local communities may suggest that they be implemented across the whole of their area, which would cause an animal welfare issue, especially for those responsible dog owners who look after their pets. Indeed, evidence shows that Staffordshire bull terriers are safe dogs if handled properly. However, many of the problems associated with status dogs arise because people do not understand how to look after them and do not train them properly. Blanket orders banning such dogs from green spaces could be very popular but would cause many problems. Many animal welfare charities are overrun with bull breeds of dogs that have been abandoned and the measure we are discussing would exacerbate that problem. The amendment would ensure consultation around such enforcement. I think that enforcement of breed-specific measures would be a mistake. The Dangerous Dogs Act 1991 was drawn up in haste and tried to ban pit bull terriers. However, there are now more pit bull terriers in the country than when the Act was introduced, so it did not work. In addition, it is a very difficult law to enforce.
I understand that muzzling or keeping dogs on leads at certain times could be a solution to this problem in certain areas but a blanket ban would be a problem. Will this issue be dealt with in the guidance that will be brought forward? If that is not the case, who will make representations on behalf of these dog breeds? Amendment 38 refers to representations. I hope that national bodies will be consulted in areas where dog wardens do not exist following financial cuts. I very much hope that the Minister will advise that blanket bans cannot be imposed in this regard unless the animal welfare issues are fully discussed.
Anti-social Behaviour, Crime and Policing Bill
Lord Redesdale Excerpts(11 years ago)
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Lord Redesdale (LD)
My Lords, unlike my noble friend Lord Paddick, who made such an excellent maiden speech, I am a serial offender on the issues that are being raised today. I shall speak on dogs, as I have often before. In fact, I have raised two Private Member’s Bills on dangerous dogs.
I welcome the initiative brought forward by the Government. Like many of the organisations that deal with dogs, I would have liked a Bill specifically focused on dogs and the issues around them. However, I can understand why the Government have taken the course that they have. We are looking at the amendment of 12 different pieces of legislation, which causes problems for those people who try to administer issues around dangerous dogs. It is complicated and involves a number of different issues: the breed of the dog, the type of the dog, the behaviour of the dog, the behaviour of the owner and the circumstances of the incident.
Nevertheless, I welcome this Bill because dogs, like archaeology—another issue that I have raised over many years—always seem to be tagged on to the end of other pieces of legislation. It is good to see that many of the issues are being brought forward. I would very much like the opportunity to discuss the guidance document on dogs with the Minister; the noble Lord, Lord De Mauley, has been most helpful. I understand why it is a complicated document, but it now runs to around 100 pages. That gives the impression that we will have difficulty in understanding what that guidance actually contains, and that is, perhaps, a recipe for slight issues. I hope that a one-page précis can be given out to those who try to enforce it, because a number of agencies will have to administrate it—not just the police but dog wardens and other appointed parties.
I want to raise a number of other issues in the very brief time allotted for these speeches. Considering how many hours I have spent talking about dogs, I think that six minutes is very parsimonious. I know that the Dogs Trust is hoping for dog control notices, and that issue will be discussed. There are also provisions on dogs attacking trespassers on their own property. While I very much welcome and have pushed for provisions on dog attacks on private property to solve some of the problems that we have seen, we need to discuss the defence of owners, which is an important aspect. We forget that there are 8.2 million dogs in this country; most owners are extremely responsible and would be horrified by the idea that they might be labelled as owners of dangerous dogs.
The whole point of any legislation around dogs is that it is the owner who is responsible. The important point is which end of the lead is actually responsible for the behaviour of the dog. A key aspect of the legislation that the Government are bringing forward is to make sure that owners understand their responsibilities. On that basis, I welcome the severe tariffs that are associated with owners who have used dogs as a weapon. There have been several cases, and at least one conviction, where a dog has been used as a murder weapon. That is totally unacceptable. I believe, therefore, that the tariff should reflect the seriousness and the heinous nature of such a crime. Many people who own dogs for intimidation do so because it does not have the same tariff as carrying a knife. We have to take that issue into account.
The other issue is that of protected animals. Under the 2006 Act, protected animals are specified. I am glad to see that frogs are not included because I have a cockapoo who lost a fight recently with a frog—it is a long and complicated story, so I will leave it, given the time of night. However, there is an issue with dogs attacking other dogs. We know from the figures that dogs that have been used to attack other dogs often attack people. The Blue Cross is particularly concerned about making owners aware that it is unacceptable to use their dogs to attack other animals, such as cats. I think that that will cause some controversy.
I give the Minister prior notice that “protected animals” includes farm livestock. This just shows the difficulty of introducing legislation in this area. As a farmer, the Minister knows that there is a severe financial penalty for sheep worrying. Indeed, the NFU gave the figure of £1,500 in some recorded cases. Unfortunately, the offence is handled under the 1956 Act, where the maximum penalty is £10. I very much hope that we can revisit this to make sure that owners are aware of the great burden that can fall on sheep farmers, especially when the income of hill farmers is not at its highest. I declare an interest as the owner of two hill farms, so I know that the income from them is not high.
Legislation: Data Retention
Lord Redesdale Excerpts(11 years, 8 months ago)
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Lord Redesdale
To ask Her Majesty’s Government whether they will require Ministers to report on the financial and carbon consequences of any data retention requirements included in any future legislation.
The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State, Home Office (Lord Taylor of Holbeach)
My Lords, it is government policy to conduct an impact assessment, including analyses of the economic and carbon consequences, for any regulation that affects the private sector or civil society, or significantly affects public services. The Government published the draft communications data Bill in June 2012 and it has undergone intensive pre-legislative scrutiny. We intend to bring forward revised legislation in due course, which will be accompanied by an updated impact assessment.
Lord Redesdale
My Lords, is the Minister aware that sending an e-mail with an attachment can cost about 4 grams of carbon for each e-mail? If you scale that up for the amount of data that the Government are asking to be retained over the next few years, the cost runs into the tens or hundreds of millions of pounds for each piece of legislation we pass. This also causes a massive problem in the amount of electricity that is needed in data centres. Considering that the country is facing an energy shortage, do the Government not agree that perhaps an impact assessment in respect of the data that are required to be retained should be published on the face of each Bill?
Lord Taylor of Holbeach
I will just make it clear that the Bill does not provide for the storing of the content of a communication, including the attachments to an e-mail. That would be interception, which is governed by a separate set of rules. Although we will seek to require providers to retain more data under the Bill, the amount of physical space and the electricity required for these data stores will be relatively low, particularly as providers may well take the opportunity to update to newer technology.
Lord Taylor of Holbeach
The noble Lord is very knowledgeable on this subject as he was responsible for it in the past. What he has said is absolutely true.
Lord Redesdale
My Lords, if the Minister will forgive me, my Question was about the actual carbon cost of the data, not of terrorism legislation. If you take the storage that is already covered by legislation from the Department for Work and Pensions and the Ministry of Justice—we are doing the figures at the moment—it seems that the electricity cost is greater than that of some small African countries. This is a growing problem that does not seem to have been addressed by any government department; it is not about a specific piece of legislation.
Lord Taylor of Holbeach
I come back to my noble friend by saying that I did address this issue. In seeking to require providers to retain more data, technical experts who have advised me and other Ministers in this matter say that the amount of physical space and electricity required for these data will be relatively low. We do not expect a significant carbon footprint or any notable impact on the British carbon commitment as a result of these proposals.