Higher Education and Research Bill

Lord Prior of Brampton Excerpts

Committee: 7th sitting (Hansard): House of Lords
Monday 30th January 2017 Lords Chamber

[The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State, Department for Business, Energy and Industrial Strategy (Lord Prior of Brampton) (Con)]

My Lords, I thank the noble Lord, Lord Mendelsohn, for his opening address, which was helpful in setting the context for this debate. The noble Lord is right: the context is partly Brexit and partly that many overseas countries are spending a lot more per capita on research than we do. It is also the fact that the British Government have committed to spending an extra £2 billion a year on research by 2020.

The noble Lord also raised the important issue of the evaluation of UKRI—this will come up later in the debate. One of the first things that the UKRI board will do after it is appointed is put together a strategic plan, which will be discussed in more detail in this House and government circles.

I welcome the opportunity to debate further the issue of joint working between UKRI and the OfS, which the Government—and the three noble Lords who have contributed to the debate so far—recognise as crucial to the success of both organisations. It was recently announced that the Government will be investing an extra £2 billion a year in R&D by the end of this Parliament. This investment is a clear vote of confidence in the new structures created by UKRI. It will play a key role in delivering the industrial strategy and in the success of our future knowledge economy.

On the issue of joint working, I sincerely appreciate the concerns raised by the noble Lord, Lord Mendelsohn, the noble Baroness, Lady Garden, my noble and learned friend Lord Mackay and others. However, an absolute requirement for UKRI and the OfS to work together in exercising their functions could well be counterproductive. For the areas where they should be working together, Clause 106 offers a mechanism for the Secretary of State to require the two organisations to do so, should they fail to co-operate of their own accord.

However, this is not the sole, nor the most important, means to drive joint working. There will be regular engagement and communication between the two government departments involved and both organisations at all levels of operation. Guidance will also be issued through a variety of means, including the Secretary of State’s annual grant letters. Furthermore, in addition to regular meetings between the Government and senior representatives from the OfS and UKRI, the Secretary of State will have the power, through the Bill, to send representatives to attend the board meetings of both organisations. In combination with the expectation that each organisation’s annual report will address areas where they work jointly, this will allow the Government to perform an ongoing assessment of the effectiveness of co-operation between the two organisations, and to respond quickly if this is not satisfactory.

On Amendment 509, as my noble friend Lord Younger said previously, UKRI will work closely with the OfS on matters related to research degree-awarding powers. Likewise, UKRI will work with the OfS at all levels to ensure there is a coherent approach to the research talent pipeline. While I agree that they should certainly take a joined-up approach on these two matters, joint decisions would not always be effective or efficient. For example, each year thousands of research students in the UK are supported by research council funding. It would not be practical or useful for the OfS to be involved in these funding decisions, just as HEFCE is not involved now.

On Amendment 508C, I do not believe that legislation is the right place to specify the particular areas that UKRI and the OfS should co-operate on. It is likely that such areas will change in the future, and there must be a degree of discretion to accommodate this. I hope noble Lords will agree that guidance is a better, more flexible mechanism, and this is what the Government intend to use.

On Amendment 471A, the noble Lord, Lord Mendelsohn, echoed by a number of other noble Lords, made the case for a shared board member between UKRI and the OfS. I can reassure the House that the Government have given this matter significant thought. Following in-depth consideration, the Government have concluded that a shared board member would not best serve its purpose. The responsibility laid on this member would be to encourage and facilitate effective communication between both organisations. However, this will need to happen at all levels, and covering the breadth of their remits. I do not believe that it is possible for a single individual to fulfil this role effectively. Responsibility for joint working and effective communication will be shared by all members of the UKRI and OfS boards, and involve many officials spread throughout the organisations.

Joint working and effective communication will be of the utmost importance, and I hope that I have provided reassurance that this Bill will put in place the appropriate measures to ensure this. Therefore, I ask the noble Lord to withdraw his amendment.

[Lord Mendelsohn]

I thank the Minister for that reply but wish to make a couple of points. Certainly, there is always a place for guidance. The question here is: what are we trying to achieve? There needs to be a level of not just mechanics but of culture where these organisations work together. My fear is that the Bill could have unintended consequences. When we met senior administrators of universities, they asked how the organisation and running of their operations would change and about the interface with the OfS and UKRI. For example, the once-a-year evaluation with HEFCE will now take place with two separate organisations. Will that change the way the leadership works or the way that institutions report? A series of potential unintended consequences could occur unless we specify and knit together the way in which these institutions will work. That is the nature of the problem we are talking about.

There are some very specific measures, such as the one raised by the noble and learned Lord, Lord Mackay of Clashfern, which is one that could be reasonably accommodated. However, in general, we need to establish the right culture and circumstances to ensure that these two institutions do not just have a sense of working together but see themselves as partners in a very important endeavour.

Finally, as regards the shared board member that I proposed, we are not placing a colossal, herculean task on one individual. For institutions that are meant to work together, it is important to have someone who is able to tell the temperature or the context of the debate, and be able to ensure that at the very top level both institutions are aware of the atmospherics and the sense of how an issue is approached. That level of understanding is important. Whatever the mechanics at the bottom, and whatever arrangements we have in place, if there is a dissonance in understanding at the very top, that is a major consideration. I hope that the Minister will provide some more developed thoughts on that at a later stage. I beg leave to withdraw the amendment.

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[The Earl of Selborne (Con)]

My Lords, these amendments certainly seem uncontroversial in that, if you look at paragraphs 2(5)(a) to (c)—we will come to a proposal later that another sub-paragraph be added—it is clear that these are experiences and expertise that will be highly valuable.

This gives me an opportunity to point out that, under sub-paragraph (c), one of the categories is experience of,

“industrial, commercial and financial matters”—

this is for a member of the UKRI board. This will be particularly essential, because of course Innovate UK will be subsumed as one of the nine councils within UKRI. It will have to have access to a completely new field of expertise, which Innovate UK does not have at the moment, particularly the ability to leverage new financial funds. Otherwise, you cannot expect the great expansion that we would like to see of Innovate UK, if it is to play the critical role in bringing research councils and commercial research into a closer relationship and improving our rather abysmal productivity levels—which, indeed, can probably be improved only by a successful rollout of innovation.

There will be a clash of cultures if UKRI is heavily weighted, as it almost certainly will be, towards,

“research into science, technology, humanities and new ideas”.

There simply must be people who understand the concept of risk, which is a completely different concept to the one that research councils at the moment have. I therefore point out just how critical it will be to have such experience not just on the council of Innovate UK, where inevitably all this expertise must lie, but it must be well represented on the UKRI board. Otherwise, the idea of bedding the two together will be doomed to disaster.

[Lord Prior of Brampton]

My Lords, I agree entirely with what the noble Lord, Lord Mendelsohn, said on the last group of amendments—that culture, not mechanics, is critical in this. That is one of the reasons why we are not being as prescriptive in the Bill as some people would like. That also applies to these two amendments.

I appreciate and understand the intention of these amendments, which recognise the vital role of the board in UKRI’s success. Of course, as my noble friend Lord Selborne just said, it is vital that the interests of research are properly balanced by people with experience in industry who are, as he put it, used to taking risks in the commercial world. The board will have responsibility for leading on overall strategic direction and cross-cutting decision-making, as well as ensuring close working relationships with the OfS and other key partners.

As noble Lords may be aware, an advertisement for board members has recently been published. It specifically calls for individuals with appropriate experience of those areas listed in the Bill but it also specifies that they,

“should be able to reflect and express authoritatively the perspective and views of stakeholder communities”.

I assure the noble Lord, Lord Sharkey, and others that we are seeking the highest calibre of candidates. It will be critical that we find the right mix of skills and experience from a diverse range of backgrounds across the UK and beyond, and it will be important to maintain as much flexibility as possible. The Bill has been carefully drafted, with the appropriate legal advice, to ensure that it will enable this on a continuing basis. I reassure noble Lords that the intent of the amendments is already reflected in this schedule, and on that basis I ask that the noble Lord withdraws his amendment.

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[Lord Stevenson of Balmacara (Lab)]

My Lords, this has been a very good, sharp little debate. I look forward to the Minister’s response. Given his previous background in your Lordships’ House as a spokesman on behalf of the Department of Health, presumably he will speak with a bit more direct experience than would otherwise be expected. It must be very clear that, whereas in the first two groups of amendments we were talking about the mechanics and he was able to guide us away from any suggestion that the Bill might be amended, he is now firmly up against the fact that the culture is sorted here, but the mechanics are not. We will have to look very hard at the points made, with some force, by all those who have spoken.

We have signed up to most of the amendments in this grouping and support the points made by the noble Lords, Lord Willis and Lord Sharkey. They made it absolutely clear that what we are talking about is completely different from desirable changes. It is about ensuring that the huge success we have seen in the development of research—particularly medical research, but it applies to other research councils—is wired into the structure. We must have an assurance from the Minister that that will be the case.

What was not said, but is available for those who have read the briefings, is that the current situation is also of concern to charities. They feel that they have been slightly taken for granted. If there had not been the change proposed here for UKRI they would probably have come forward with suggestions that they should have been brought in at this stage, if they had not been before, to the Medical Research Council and others. That is not a new initiative; it has been a bit of sand in the oyster for some time. It would be appropriate to do as they suggest. We have already been reminded that the Nurse review made it clear that charities felt that, given,

“the overlap in their interests with the Research Councils, it is important that strong contacts are developed and maintained between the Councils and the charitable sector”.

Indeed, Sir Paul, in the final section of his report, says:

“To facilitate such interactions and to ensure that proper knowledge and understanding of the entire UK research endeavour is maintained, I recommend particular care is paid to ensuring there are strong interactions between the charitable research sector and the Research Councils”.


That is a coded phrase, but it is fairly clear that his intention would be that charities, which make so much of a difference to what we are doing and bringing in patients—they have been doing this for so long and have so much experience to offer—should be hard-wired into what we are about.

Our Amendment 486A is subsidiary in a sense because the primary purpose of these amendments is to make sure that charities are involved going forward. One amendment, which we support, suggests that the mechanics of this should be done by continuing the arrangement that those charities which currently fund jointly with research councils should be able to do so and there should be nothing in the Bill to prevent that. We suggest that, in looking at this, the Government might also look at the question of making sure that the UKRI has that capacity as well and there is no problem in any legal framework about it. We support these amendments.

[Lord Prior of Brampton]

My Lords, this has been a really good short debate. I think we are all in huge agreement about the importance of the charitable sector. I recognise the figures given today: over the lifetime of this Parliament some £6 billion—I think that is what the noble Lord, Lord Sharkey, said—will go into research from charities. That is about £1.3 billion a year, which is huge. As the noble Lord said, it is bigger than the NIHR. We are all acutely aware that research money from charities is absolutely fundamental to our whole research effort in the UK. Even after the increase of £2 billion a year from the Government in 2020, which is a fantastic change, if you compare our research spending with other countries we are still low. We depend heavily on the charitable sector.

I share with all noble Lords the aspiration for UKRI to work harmoniously and productively with the charitable sector. That is why the recent advert for the UKRI board lists engaging with charities among members’ duties and welcomes applicants with experience of the charitable sector. UKRI board members will be recruited on the basis of experience and expertise from across the full range of interests of the UK’s research and innovation system. We are ensuring this happens through our current recruitment exercise. If noble Lords will find it agreeable, we will reflect on today’s debate and see whether we ought to stiffen up that language.

[Lord Stevenson of Balmacara]

We have heard a number of variations on the theme of reflection. Before the noble Lord finishes, could he be clearer about whether he will seriously take this away and look at it with a view to coming back on Report or will he just sit and reflect on it? Noble Lords would be very grateful to know that.

[Lord Prior of Brampton]

I was under the impression that the word “reflection” has a parliamentary connotation and means more than just idly reflecting in the Bishops’ Bar after this debate, instead implying a serious discussion with colleagues and parliamentary draftsmen. Sometimes you can make amendments that satisfy the spirit of everything that has been discussed but they have unintended consequences which can have the opposite effect. When I use “reflect” now or later in this debate, I do so with serious intent.

Turning to Amendments 486A and 491 on partnering, raised by the noble Lord, Lord Sharkey, and the noble Baroness, Lady Morgan, with a third of university research income coming from links with business and charities, their contribution towards the UK research endeavour is clearly very significant. The councils continue to have an important role, encouraging links with universities and through forming their own direct partnerships. UKRI will continue this and ensure public, charitable and private investments in research are aligned to achieve maximum overall benefit. Noble Lords will have noted that UKRI has two specific powers to allow joint working: with the devolved Administrations and with the OfS. This is not just because these are important interactions; there are specific legal reasons why additional powers are necessary, for instance to allow Research England to continue to work with the devolved Administrations jointly on current UK-wide priorities, including developing the next research excellence framework.

In all other instances, however, I can reassure noble Lords that UKRI will not need specific provision to be able to work jointly with other bodies. I can absolutely reassure noble Lords that those partnerships between UKRI or its councils and the charitable research sector, not to mention other research funders, will be in no way impeded by the Bill. I can confirm the statement made by the UKRI chair, Sir John Kingman, in this respect. In fact, the Bill places a duty on UKRI to be as efficient, effective and economic as possible. It is difficult to envisage instances where collaborating with an appropriate funder from the charitable sector or elsewhere would not achieve these aims.

In conclusion, while I agree wholeheartedly with the spirit of this proposal and welcome the opportunity to recognise the important role of charity funders, no additions to the Bill are required to enable UKRI to work with other bodies or to ensure charity sector experience on the board. I ask the noble Lord to withdraw his amendment.

[Lord Sharkey]

Perhaps I might press the Minister for a little more clarity about how these partnerships will take place in future. Will there be any additional requirements in forming these partnerships above those that currently exist? I also asked whether there were any circumstances in which such proposed partnerships would need explicit approval from UKRI. The more general question which relates to that is: what spending decisions, if any, would be reserved to UKRI?

[Lord Prior of Brampton]

My Lords, I think I shall duck that to some extent and write to the noble Lord, if I may. Where money changes hands in these partnerships, there has always been some control from the Secretary of State. Is that not right for a new partnership or a joint venture? Rather than ad lib on this, I had better consult officials and write to the noble Lord.

[Lord Mackay of Clashfern]

I think it is reasonably clear that the research councils will cease to exist as bodies. They will become committees of UKRI. Therefore, it will be impossible for them to form any kind of partnership. What will happen, I assume, is that UKRI will form partnerships, perhaps resembling the partnerships that were there before, but there will be no question of the research councils having any right to form partnerships of any sort whatever. UKRI will have to do all of that.

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[Lord Stevenson of Balmacara]

My Lords, this has been a very interesting debate, and I am grateful to the noble Lord, Lord Patel, for introducing it so well, because he covered all the nuances. We have one amendment in this group, Amendment 500A, which complements the points that he was making. It reflects the need to make sure that Research England, in its functions, which would be very narrowly focused on England—including, of course, the north of England—could have the capacity to consult other bodies that perform the same functions in Scotland, Wales and Northern Ireland. That goes with the general grain of what is being discussed.

I have a fantasy that this area was probably dreamed up in the good old days before Brexit was on the horizon, in the confident assumption that there would be no separate Scotland—and certainly no separate Wales and Northern Ireland, if these issues are still in play, as I am sure they are. That reflects a relatively straightforward analysis of what had to be done to pay lip service to the need to ensure that those people not physically located in England were seen to have some influence on the levers that generated the money. But that is such a naive view of what is now such a complicated world that I wonder whether what is in the Bill is sufficient to take that trick. It is one area in which reflection will be required, as the noble and learned Lord hinted, because I do not think that what we have here will do.

I take it as axiomatic that UKRI is not a representative body and that there would be no advantage in making it so—so we are not talking about ensuring that the representation on it is in some way reflective of the various agencies and constituencies that need to be served by it. However, there are optical issues—it has to be seen to be representative in a way that would not have been the case two or three years ago. The idea that, as we heard from the letter of invitation, it has an acknowledgment of the need to recruit from people with obvious experience in an area will probably will not be sufficient. We are talking about the allocation of resources getting scarcer as we go forward, despite the Government’s reasonable largesse, in an environment where it would be very difficult for those bodies that have been funded to seek alternative matching funding. The institutions we are talking about are not all universities, because research is carried out outside the universities—although much less than in other European countries—in research institutes and similar places. Up until now these have been very reliant on external funding and, as we will hear in later amendments, they are feeling a cold wind coming. In this very complicated area we have to ensure that the funds will reach the institutions which are best able to provide the research services which UK plc is looking for and in a way that is seen to be fair.

We have not touched on the fairness issue. The noble Lord, Lord Patel, talked about the need for firewalls to make sure that the funding streams were not absorbed by other pressures and under other arrangements. That is probably a necessary but not sufficient condition and does not need to be in the Bill. However, the idea exists that England, because of the golden triangle effect, has a pre-eminent chance of getting all the funding and that, despite the way in which these funds will be allocated—through the Haldane principle and others—there will be enough room left for those who wish to make trouble about this in, say, Scotland or other places. This is a worry and it will need to be looked at very carefully before the Minister comes back. I do not have a solution to it, but we are not necessarily in the right place at the moment.

[Lord Prior of Brampton]

I thank the noble Lord, Lord Patel, for his speech at the beginning of this debate which helped identify some of the issues. First, I emphasise that UKRI, as a UK-wide body, has a built-in duty to work for the whole of the UK. The prospect of having people on the UKRI board from all parts of England, Scotland, Wales and Northern Ireland does not fill one with much joy. Secondly, I make it clear that these reforms will not affect current funding access for institutions in Wales, Scotland or Northern Ireland. In the other place, my honourable friend the Minister cited the Public Bill Committee evidence of the former vice-chancellor of the University of Dundee and current vice-chancellor of the University of Leeds, Sir Alan Langlands. I hope that noble Lords will permit me to echo that powerful evidence once more. Sir Alan said that,

“given the dynamics of devolution and the fact that essentially we are dealing with four different financial systems and four different policy frameworks, the one thing that has stuck together through all this has been the UK science and research community. The research councils, HEFCE and, indeed, BIS have played a hugely important part in that”.

As part of UKRI, the research councils and Innovate UK will continue to operate across the UK, funding projects through open competition on the basis of excellence, wherever it is found.

In answer to the question from the noble Lord, Lord Patel, on capital, the devolved Governments have a capital allocation direct from the Treasury as part of their block grant. Decisions on whether to allocate any of these funds on research or innovation are entirely for them: this will not change. Capital allocated by research councils, as a result of competitive processes, wherever the researchers are based across the UK, will continue to be delivered through the UKRI councils: this will not change. The Secretary of State, when making capital allocations for research, most recently through the capital road map, also makes an allocation for HE institutions to support the sustainability consequences of their relative success in winning research council funding. This process will not change, including the requirement for the devolved Governments to match-fund any allocation by the Secretary of State to the devolved funding councils.

On Amendment 501, I share the noble Lord’s desire that UKRI’s strategy should work for the whole of the UK. The strategy will be the product of a consultation with research and innovation institutions and bodies from across the UK. I also assure noble Lords that this consultation will of course incorporate the views of the devolved Governments. However, I disagree that this should be achieved by requiring the Secretary of State to formally consult with the devolved Governments on reserved UK government policy, which would undermine the whole devolution settlement.

I reassure the noble Lord, Lord Liddle, that we are putting in place extra protections for Research England. This reflects the provisions in the Further and Higher Education Act 1992, which places the same restriction on the Secretary of State in relation to HEFCE funding. The provision protects the academic freedom of institutions in respect of what is taught, what research is undertaken and who is employed. Likewise, I assure noble Lords that Research England will work closely with its devolved counterparts on matters of strategic interest—for example, on the research excellence framework. After discussions with the devolved Administrations, the Government passed a new clause in the other place, now Clause 107, to enable this joint working. Additionally, the current drafting of Clause 91 enables Research England to consult with its devolved equivalents, and we would fully expect it to do so whenever this was appropriate and valuable.

I turn to Amendment 502. UKRI must have flexibility to manage its funds to ensure best value for its resources and to meet our strategic aspirations for seamless administration of interdisciplinary research and joint research and innovation projects. Currently, allocations to funding bodies are discussed with the Treasury, which assesses any Barnett implications for the devolved Governments. This is not changed by the Bill. UKRI will also be bound by rules established for managing public money and a financial accountability and assurance framework which will be set up with the department. These arrangements do not constitute a reduction in current levels of parliamentary oversight. This amendment would place additional duties on Parliament to scrutinise even small variations in budgets that would be required in response to changes to project timelines or to support joint research and innovation projects, for example. This would not be a good use of Parliament’s time, and would hamper UKRI’s strategic agility by significantly slowing decision-making.

I urge noble Lords to consider the advice that the noble Lord, Lord Mandelson, offered at Second Reading:

“I urge UKRI not to be overly prescriptive about partitioning funds between its component parts. We need a system that allows partners to come together across STEM subjects, the humanities and social sciences, and with industry partners, to drive a research ecosystem which goes from blue-skies research to commercial application and impact”.—[Official Report, 6/12/16; col. 624.]


Noble Lords have raised concerns about Research England’s funding stream. I reassure them that the Secretary of State would not agree to UKRI viring money in such a way as to result in a net change in Research England’s stated budget over a full spending review period. This will be made clear in guidance to UKRI.

Amendment 504 would give an effective veto power to the devolved Governments on matters of reserved UK government policy. The power of direction is limited to financial matters and reflects existing powers. The Secretary of State may use it to deal swiftly with financial issues, and it is an essential safeguard to the over £6 billion of public money that UKRI will receive per annum. Since this power is intended to allow the Government to deal quickly with urgent financial matters, I further appeal to noble Lords that a restrictive and drawn-out process of consultation is not the right approach.

As regards Amendment 507, the Government will continue to work with the devolved Governments on research and innovation policy, as they do now. The Secretary of State, as a UK Minister, already has a duty to act in the best interests of the whole of the UK. The Government made an amendment in the other place to ensure that the Secretary of State, when appointing members to UKRI’s board, must have regard to the desirability of including at least one person with relevant experience in relation to at least one of Wales, Scotland and Northern Ireland. No such duty is currently in place regarding existing bodies with UK-wide remits. This strikes the right balance between ensuring relevant experience of research and innovation systems across the UK on UKRI’s board and giving the Secretary of State the flexibility to appoint the best people for these important roles. Here I assure the noble Lord, Lord Storey, that there will be a proper gender balance on the UKRI board. Further wording around the Secretary of State’s duties in this respect would damage this crucial flexibility. With these explanations and assurances I ask the noble Lord, Lord Patel, to withdraw his amendment.

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[Lord Prior of Brampton]

My Lords, I agree that the issue of research council autonomy is of the utmost importance and will take this opportunity to restate the Government’s commitment to the Haldane principle so well described by my noble friend Lord Willetts. I think we will be coming back to the Haldane principle later this evening. We sought to embed it throughout Part 3 of the Bill.

These reforms have been developed following Sir Paul Nurse’s independent review of the research councils, which involved significant consultation with the sector. It would not be for the benefit of research and innovation, or the UK, were we to delay bringing these reforms forward while conducting another review. In implementing Sir Paul Nurse’s recommendations it will be necessary to make changes to current structures—for example to better enable inter-disciplinary research. I am confident that we can undertake these reforms to build on the existing success of our funding bodies.

I reassure noble Lords that the research councils will continue to be vital components of the research and innovation landscape, and through Clause 103 we are protecting their symbolic property and goodwill, including their name, insignia and branding. Furthermore, they will retain their discipline responsibility, operating within a structure that enables greater interdisciplinarity.

Key among Sir Paul Nurse’s recommendations is the need for a single accounting officer. To implement his vision, the governance structure of research councils needs to change and the role of the chief executive will evolve accordingly. Council executive chairs will be powerful positions focused on key strategic planning, performance management and decision-making within their disciplines. The role will have sufficient powers and should be able to attract extremely high-quality candidates. To ensure that this is the case, the role will combine those of the current council chair and chief executive.

I do not believe that a distinct, non-executive chair position is necessary within this new arrangement. Councils will have collective responsibility for strategic, scientific or innovation decisions in their disciplines and they will, for example, continue to take decisions on the prioritisation of their hypothecated budgets within their delegated limits. The UKRI chief executive and board, which of course has a non-executive chairman, as well as the executive committee, will be able to provide challenge and support to inform these decisions. Each executive chair will also be supported by their council. Introducing a non-executive chair and chief executive for each council into this line of accountability would risk confusing accountabilities within UKRI and undermine its key strategic role.

The noble Lord, Lord Mendelsohn, referred to Confucius and the three ways of improvement: reflection, imitation and experience. All my experience—it is possibly bitter experience—is that confused lines of accountability lead to problems. To have chief executives of councils who are accountable to a non-executive chairman, with perhaps a dotted line there and a straight line to the chief executive at UKRI, would build accountability problems into the structure. I was interested by the suggestion of the noble Lord, Lord Broers, of an equivalent to a senior independent director or SID, in a sense imitating corporate governance on the board of a council. That is worthy of further consideration. Perhaps the chair of UKRI might like to discuss that with council members once they have been appointed.

On the proposal for an executive committee, I fully agree that such a committee would provide a valuable forum within UKRI. Yet an executive committee would simply be a matter of good organisational design and governance, and it does not need to be in the Bill. However, noble Lords made an interesting case warranting—I regret to say—further reflection.

Following on from this, I will also address the suggestion from the noble Lord, Lord Mendelsohn, that the executive chairs of councils should be consulted on the development of UKRI’s strategy. I agree wholeheartedly; it is a necessity to ensure the overall coherence of the UKRI strategy and each council’s strategic delivery plan. I fully expect the executive committee, on which all the executive chairs will sit, to play an integral role in this process.

On Amendment 480, we set an upper limit on the number of members on each council to facilitate their effective and efficient operation. I believe that this is appropriate, particularly given that the UKRI board will take on certain functions such as oversight of corporate functions. None the less, the noble Lord, Lord Willis, and others made a compelling case to increase this limit. My noble friend Lady Neville-Jones suggested that there should be no limit at all. Again, that is something that we would like to reflect on.

On Amendment 481, regarding lay representation on councils, I appreciate the intent with which the noble Lord tabled this amendment and reassure him that this legislation does not preclude the councils from appointing lay members, as many currently do. I hope that I have provided some reassurance—

[Lord Willis of Knaresborough]

If you imagine having a chief executive who is also an academic, the rest of the council could then be appointed as academics. Where does the challenge come there to address the issues mentioned earlier about, for instance, the north, Scotland and other organisations?

[Lord Prior of Brampton]

I think the challenge comes from two places. First, the executive chairman would be on the executive committee of UKRI so it will be challenged there. Secondly, there will also be challenge—or support, where required—from the UKRI board. I hope that I have provided reassurance on the proposed governance structures and powers regarding the councils, and ask the noble Baroness to withdraw the amendment.

[Baroness Brown of Cambridge]

I thank the Minister for his detailed response, and in particular for his commitment to the Haldane principle and his assurance about the continued importance of the individual research councils within the new organisation. I also thank the other noble Lords who spoke powerfully in this debate for their contributions in support of both my own and the other amendments.

I really believe that UKRI can be a success but achieving that will need strong, autonomous and diverse councils working together. Governance changes do not need to remove independent chairs. Just about every major company in the world these days operates a matrix structure where people manage dotted and solid-line accountabilities and responsibilities. Managing that is not beyond the very best of science, innovation and business in the UK. I hope there will be some further reflection as the Minister withdraws to his room of many mirrors. I am glad that he will at least consider the proposal from the noble Lord, Lord Broers, of a senior independent director. I wonder if that senior independent director might still grow into an independent chair of a board.

I am delighted to hear that the Minister will also reflect on the size of councils, because they are diverse and will need to be of different sizes. As we heard from the noble Baroness, Lady Neville-Jones, the EPSRC distributes a lot of money across a very diverse collection of engineering, science and mathematics subject areas. It is very important that both the business and academic communities can be present on the council in order for it to make good decisions.

I am also delighted to hear that the Minister will reflect on whether an executive committee should be put in the Bill.

[Lord Prior of Brampton]

I did not say that I thought the executive committee should go in the Bill. I felt that it was not necessary for it to go in the Bill because it will just be part of normal, good operational governance.

[Baroness Brown of Cambridge]

I beg the Minister’s pardon. I misheard him. I thought he said he would reflect on that further and I thought that might mean it would appear in the Bill. Since it is so necessary, I do not see any reason he would not put it in the Bill because it would provide so much assurance to the community about the importance of the research councils. Of course, we would expect such a committee to play a key role in strategy.

As I think the Minister can tell, I am looking forward to hearing more about potential government amendments in this area and I hope that they will not disappoint us. On that basis, I am happy to withdraw the amendment.

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[Lord Bilimoria (CB)]

My Lords, I declare my interest as chancellor of the University of Birmingham and chair of the advisory board of the University of Cambridge Judge Business School. On that note, if I may boast, today the FT global rankings for the MBA came out and the Judge Business School rose from number 10 to number five in the world. This is a business school that has been around for only 26 years, compared with the Harvard Business School, which is over 100 years old. One of the reasons for that success is the excellence of research at a university like Cambridge.

The problem that is overlooked completely by the Bill is that we in this country carry out excellent research despite underfunding it compared with competitor countries. We spend 1.7% of GDP, compared with 2.8% in the USA and Germany. Our research councils, which are world-class and respected around the world, have been doing a great job as autonomous units. One of the main worries about the Bill in universities and research councils is the removal of the autonomy of these institutions. They function well thanks to that autonomy.

I support Amendment 490D from the noble Baroness, Lady Brown, and the noble Lord, Lord Krebs, which would leave out the words “as UKRI may determine”. Under Clause 89, headed, “Exercise of functions by science and humanities Councils”, UKRI would have the right to determine what they do. This is absolutely wrong. Whatever the reasons the Government have given for having a layer like UKRI, many people—the noble Lord, Lord Rees, has argued well against it—have said it is completely not necessary and could be damaging to the whole sector. The analogy made was setting up a body to represent all the world-class museums in London, which are the best museums in the world. That would be completely unnecessary as they are doing a great job on their own. We have to ensure that the autonomy of the research councils is protected, whatever happens, even with the existence of this body called UKRI.

[Lord Prior of Brampton]

My Lords, my noble and learned friend Lord Mackay kindly referred to my usual clarity. I fear, in so far as I ever had any clarity, it is rapidly dissipating as time goes on. Still, I will try to respond to many of the issues that have been raised in this very interesting debate.

I shall start with the governance relationship between research councils and UKRI. I will resist the temptation to address the broader issue raised by the noble Lord, Lord Bilimoria, but I recognise that the UK still underfunds research compared with many of our competitor countries. Nevertheless, the £2 billion increase coming into UK research in 2020 is a significant change. One has to ask oneself whether that would have come about without UKRI being about to become our key co-ordinating research body.

Through Clause 89 the research councils retain their right to make decisions within their respective discipline areas. I assure noble Lords that UKRI must arrange for the seven research councils to carry out their roles and functions within their areas of activity. UKRI cannot prevent any of the research councils carrying out their functions in their respective areas.

I thank my noble and learned friend Lord Mackay for pointing out that references to “humanities” are in fact defined in the Bill, in Clause 105. It makes it very clear that they are defined as including the arts, and references to “sciences” include social sciences.

In discussions in the other place, the Government were clear that funding allocations would be made to each of the councils by the Government in the UKRI grant letter. Delegated authority limits will be set for the research councils to operate independently but additional approvals may be needed, including from the UKRI board, in line with current government best practice.

It is an important part of these reforms that UKRI will empower the councils to work together. The amendments would not prevent UKRI operating in this manner, but would obscure our intent for UKRI to take strategic decisions and facilitate development of the overall direction.

To address the point made by the noble Lord, Lord Mendelsohn, this reform is about far more than efficiency savings or a reduction in bureaucracy. We must deliver these where we have the opportunity to, but not at the expense of the strengths of the current system. However, the removal of the current duplication of back-office functions across multiple bodies will ultimately drive efficiency savings and reduce the administrative burdens placed on research and innovation leaders, freeing them up to focus on strategic decision-making. It will also help to deliver simplified systems and processes for funding recipients.

On Amendments 485C and 195A, I welcome the opportunity to assure noble Lords that UKRI’s core purpose is to seek to improve the UK’s science and knowledge base, and it will seek to improve knowledge and understanding through research. Advancing knowledge is a critical role of the whole of the UK research base, including UKRI and the research councils, and we will look carefully at this matter before we return to the House on Report. I share the aspiration of the noble Lords, Lord Willis and Lord Cameron, for UKRI to support research programmes that can help to shape government policy, ensure resilience and respond to key challenges facing the UK.

On social inclusion, community cohesion and social and cultural well-being, I am certain that the current duty on councils to consider the desirability of improving quality of life is sufficient to cover these.