Trial by Jury: Proposed Restrictions

Lord Ponsonby of Shulbrede Excerpts

Monday 14th July 2025 Lords Chamber

[Lord Keen of Elie (Con)]

My Lords, the creation of a Crown Court bench division, as recommended by Sir Brian Leveson, must be seen in light of his related recommendations. One of the most critical to arrest the growing crisis in our criminal justice system is to provide a further 20,000 Crown Court sitting days. Do His Majesty’s Government accept that clear recommendation? If not, why not? If they accept it, what immediate steps are they actively taking to implement it?

[The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State, Ministry of Justice (Lord Ponsonby of Shulbrede) (Lab)]

My Lords, the Government already have more sitting days than any previous Government. The central observation of both Sir Brian Leveson’s review and the earlier view of David Gauke is that one cannot sit oneself out of this crisis or build oneself out of it by building more prison places. There needs to be a systemic review encompassing both Sir Brian’s recommendations and the Gauke recommendations to stop the ever-increasing amount of people being sent to our prisons. It is that in that spirit that we will review Sir Brian’s recommendations. We will publish our review some time in the autumn, with a view to legislating on the matter in due course later this year.

[Lord Thomas of Gresford (LD)]

My Lords, we are not short of jurors; the whole adult population can serve in a jury. We are short of judges, of prosecuting and defence barristers and of courts that are fit for purpose. Leveson suggests that his new bench courts would give rise to a mere 20% savings in time, and he admits there is no evidential basis for what is simply a guess. If the Government are minded to accept that recommendation, will they introduce pilots to test his hypothesis? What are they doing to address the delays for victims, and for defendants on remand in prison, that are staring them in the face now?

[Lord Ponsonby of Shulbrede (Lab)]

I thank the noble Lord for those questions. He is absolutely right that we are not short of jurors. We are also not short of magistrates and there is no shortage of applicants to become magistrates. Sir Brian’s suite of recommendations included increasing the role of the magistrates’ court, as well as introducing the new bench division within the Crown Court, to which the noble Lord alluded. He said that Sir Brian said there will be a 20% saving in time with the new bench division. That is his estimate. I have to say, I think that is very conservative. We already know that for similar cases magistrates’ courts are two or three times quicker than Crown Courts, so I think it is conservative to estimate that we will see only a 20% saving in time with the new bench division courts.

The noble Lord made the point about delays for victims. Of course, that underpins the concern and the reason we are introducing these systemic changes in the first place. It is my understanding that there are about 100 cases in London booked for 2029. I think they may be mainly sex-related cases; I am not sure. That is unacceptable. It is unacceptable for the victims and the defendants, and it is a systemic problem we are trying to address.

[Baroness Chakrabarti (Lab)]

My Lords, I pay tribute to my noble friend the Minister for his long public service as a lay magistrate, as I do to Sir Brian for his long public service as a judge and, post-judiciary, on various inquiries for Governments of both persuasions. I know the Government are considering how to respond to this review and the Gauke review. May I ask my noble friend to take into account that we cannot have one class or one group of people permanently sitting in judgment over another? The lay magistracy, for all its commitment to public service, is not as representative as juries and that needs to be taken on board.

[Lord Ponsonby of Shulbrede (Lab)]

My noble friend makes a fair point. I would say that magistrates are more diverse than judges. Judges already sit in certain types of cases as single judges deciding people’s guilt; they do it in youth courts and family courts, and there are other examples within the civil jurisdiction as well. I think it is also fair to say that in the big conurbations—London and the big cities—there is greater diversity in the magistrate base. I take the point my noble friend makes, but I think that magistrates are respected and we are starting from a strong base if we want to build on the work they are doing.

[Lord Clarke of Nottingham (Con)]

My Lords, does the Minister accept that it is a scandalous disgrace that in this country some victims and people charged with offences have to wait months and sometimes years before a trial can take place? Does he therefore agree that, in those circumstances, the Government have no choice but to accept as quickly as possible the excellent recommendations made by Sir Brian Leveson, because I hear of no alternatives? Will he undertake that they will not take too long reviewing and considering these matters? This should proceed as rapidly as possible with the full support of everybody who has the interests of the rule of law and justice in this country at heart.

[Lord Ponsonby of Shulbrede (Lab)]

I thank the noble Lord for his support. I agree with everything he said. Data published last month showed the backlog stood at nearly 77,000 cases. That is an increase of 2,300 cases over the previous quarter. If we were not to take any action, it is projected that the outstanding caseload would be 100,000 in 2028. Clearly, that is unacceptable, and I absolutely take the point he made. As I said in answer to an earlier question, it is the Government’s expectation that we will respond to Sir Brian’s recommendations in the early autumn with a view to legislation.

[The Lord Bishop of Manchester]

My Lords, it was my privilege this lunchtime to be with a group of young legal students with very diverse backgrounds except that they had all been through the care system—a group of people who are more likely than anybody else to be charged and prosecuted for behaviours that others might be treated more favourably over. The same often applies to people from minority-ethnic backgrounds. Does the Minister agree that dealing with that disproportionality in how people are treated for the same behaviour by the legal system will be a good way to reduce some of the waiting lists of courts?

[Lord Ponsonby of Shulbrede (Lab)]

I absolutely recognise what the right reverend Prelate has said. As he may know, I sat as a youth magistrate for 17 years and as a family magistrate for a long period as well, and I recognise the general problem of disproportionality. There is not a single way of solving that problem, but a number of agencies within the criminal justice field and the MoJ are looking at the different aspects of disproportionality. He opened by pointing at the care system in particular. Probably well over 50% of all the youths I saw in youth court had come from the care system in one way or another, so I recognise what he is saying, and it is something that we take very seriously.

[Lord Pannick (CB)]

My Lords, does the Minister agree that, in addressing the very serious problems faced by the criminal justice system, it is important not to romanticise the jury, given that 90% of all criminal trials in this country are heard without a jury and relatively speedily—not as speedily as perhaps they could be, but relatively so—and they are heard effectively and with justice.

[Lord Ponsonby of Shulbrede (Lab)]

I agree with the noble Lord—of course I would agree because, as a magistrate, I was among those who hear 90% of all criminal cases. There is no right to a jury trial; however, there is a right to a fair trial. For a fair trial, it must be heard in a timely manner. That is where we are failing. We need these systemic changes to address that fundamental problem, so that people—both victims and defendants—can get a fair trial in a timely way.

[Lord Faulks (Non-Afl)]

My Lords, further to the question from the noble Lord, Lord Pannick, can I ask the Government to take particular note of the recommendation in relation to fraud trials? This is not a new suggestion; it goes back to Lord Roskill about 50 years ago. These are very lengthy, very expensive trials, which are often very difficult for juries to understand—that is not in any way to patronise the jury system. It would save a great deal of time and money, and would help with the backlog, if we moved to a system of trial that does not involve juries.

[Lord Ponsonby of Shulbrede (Lab)]

The noble Lord makes a very good point. It was a recommendation of Sir Brian’s, and I am sure it is one on which the Government will reflect very carefully.