UK-Canada Trade Deal: Suspension of Negotiations

Debate between Lord Offord of Garvel and Lord Foulkes of Cumnock

Tuesday 30th January 2024 Lords Chamber

[Lord Foulkes of Cumnock]

To ask His Majesty’s Government what assessment they have made of the effect of the suspension of negotiations for a trade deal with Canada.

[The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State, Department for Business and Trade and Scotland Office (Lord Offord of Garvel) (Con)]

I thank the noble Lord for his Question. The pause in negotiations does not impact our existing trade agreement with Canada, which underpins £26 billion- worth of trade per annum. The UK has decided to pause negotiations towards a new UK-Canada FTA in response to actions taken by Canada that reduce our current market access. Negotiations were launched with public commitments to increase and improve trade. Recent additions by Canada do the opposite. It is right, therefore, to pause the negotiations.

[Lord Foulkes of Cumnock (Lab Co-op)]

My Lords, post-Brexit trade negotiations are in total chaos. George Eustice, who was Environment Secretary in the Cabinet at the time, described the deal with Australia as a “failure”. Now we have pulled out unilaterally from the Canadian deal. Is that because the Secretary of State is too busy plotting, or perhaps because we do not have enough qualified people to negotiate with Canada? On what basis and terms do we crawl back in to ask Canada to restart negotiations?

[Lord Offord of Garvel (Con)]

I fundamentally disagree that we are in chaos; quite the opposite. We are making great progress. The first thing that we did when we left the EU was do a trade deal with Europe that involved rolling over trade deals with 65 countries. We have now improved that with a further seven deals. When I was in Canberra two months before Christmas, the Australia deal was held up as one of the best deals it had ever signed. As we move through, because our economy is 80% services and 20% goods, we have now got trade deals that encompass services, digital and innovation.

We wanted to do the same deal with Canada, but Canada crossed one of our red lines. The negotiations have not failed. The noble Lord and I have done many negotiations together—we sometimes have moments of pause. The Canadians have crossed a red line where they know we would never accept the hormone beef trade deal that they want to do with us. We have said no to that, which is why we have stopped.

Post Office Ltd

Debate between Lord Offord of Garvel and Lord Foulkes of Cumnock

Tuesday 30th January 2024 Lords Chamber

[Lord Offord of Garvel (Con)]

The chairman who is just leaving was not the chairman pre-2015 and he is not receiving any compensation.

[Lord Foulkes of Cumnock (Lab Co-op)]

My Lords, I am perplexed: the Statement said that the chairman left by mutual agreement, the Minister spoke earlier about his resignation, but the Secretary of State made it clear that she sacked him. Which was it? Henry Staunton was appointed by a Conservative Secretary of State, so presumably that was a mistake, for which the Minister is apologising. How can the Government make sure that, when they appoint a new chairman, they will not make the same mistake again?

[Lord Offord of Garvel (Con)]

I thank the noble Lord for that. A key part of making these appointments is to make sure that we have the right people, in the right place, and the right leadership. In this case, we agreed to part company by mutual consent. The point is that there are issues with the governance of the Post Office beyond Horizon. There needs to be further reform of the Post Office and we have to start with the chairman to move that forward.

Employers: Fire and Rehire Tactics

Debate between Lord Offord of Garvel and Lord Foulkes of Cumnock

Thursday 14th September 2023 Lords Chamber

[Lord Offord of Garvel (Con)]

This is exactly why flexibility is required, because certain changes of circumstances require the workers and managers of a company to get together with the trade unions and the directors to solve the problem through consultation and consensus, and that is generally what happens in the UK. Indeed, as my noble friend will know, we have a number of measures to help employees back into work.

[Lord Foulkes of Cumnock (Lab Co-op)]

My Lords, is there a code of fire and rehire for Ministers in the Government?

[Lord Offord of Garvel (Con)]

I welcome the noble Lord back to Questions. I think that is a very good proposal; we can put it forward to the relevant department.

Scottish Government: Expenditure

Debate between Lord Offord of Garvel and Lord Foulkes of Cumnock

Tuesday 6th June 2023 Lords Chamber

[Lord Foulkes of Cumnock]

To ask His Majesty’s Government whether they intend to take further action on expenditure by the Scottish Government in relation to reserved matters.

[The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State, Department for Business and Trade and Scotland Office (Lord Offord of Garvel) (Con)]

My Lords, as the Prime Minister has made clear, we will continue to work constructively with the Scottish Government in tackling all the shared challenges that we face. However, in light of the recent Supreme Court ruling, I am concerned at the decision to appoint a Minister for Independence. The Secretary of State for Scotland’s view is that taxpayers’ money could be spent more wisely on delivery for the people of Scotland and on devolved services.

[Lord Foulkes of Cumnock (Lab Co-op)]

My Lords, since it is absolutely clear that the Minister agrees with me, and I think with this whole House, that the Scottish Government should not be spending UK taxpayers’ money on reserved areas, is it not quite outrageous that they are spending £100,000 on a so-called Minister for Independence to go around the country in a party-political campaign to break up Britain? Even worse, there are 20 United Kingdom civil servants supporting him. Since there is only one body that can do anything about it—that is the UK Government, the Minister and his Secretary of State—when is he going to take some action?

[Lord Offord of Garvel (Con)]

I thank the noble Lord for his tenacity on this subject, because I have now been in post for 18 months and this is the sixth Question I have answered for the noble Lord, Lord Foulkes, on pretty much the same theme. It is a good theme: what do the UK Government do when they believe that the Scottish Government stray from devolved into reserved matters? We made some progress the last time we spoke in this Chamber; the previous Deputy First Minister, John Swinney, confirmed that he had taken away the £20 million that was going to be spent on the referendum on independence. But then, last week, we had the new head of the Scottish Civil Service, JP Marks, defending the appointment of the Minister for Independence, so we have sort of gone up a ladder and down a snake.

The issue here is that devolution, as devised by the noble Lord’s party, was conceived to be a construct in which the UK and Scottish Governments would work together in unity. It was not envisaged that we would have a situation in which the Scottish Government would seek every opportunity to find division and diversion away from Westminster, and therefore there are no practical levers or mechanics built into the devolution architecture for the UK Government to directly intervene in devolved matters, except through the courts. We already had the ruling in the Supreme Court. The UK Government’s position is to continue to ask the Scottish Government to focus on the real priorities of the people of Scotland and stop this obsession with independence.

Scotland: Meeting with New First Minister

Debate between Lord Offord of Garvel and Lord Foulkes of Cumnock

Wednesday 29th March 2023 Lords Chamber

[Lord Foulkes of Cumnock]

To ask His Majesty’s Government when the Secretary of State for Scotland expects to meet with the new First Minister of Scotland.

[The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State, Scotland Office (Lord Offord of Garvel) (Con)]

First, I offer my congratulations to Humza Yousaf on his appointment as First Minister of Scotland, having won the SNP leadership contest on a very close 52%-48% result with Kate Forbes.

On the Question, I know that the Secretary of State for Scotland and Prime Minister will be pleased to meet the First Minister in due course. Indeed, the UK Government remain committed to working constructively with the Scottish Government to handle the challenges that we both face. The Secretary of State for Scotland has been on record as saying that this is an excellent opportunity to press the reset button and make devolution work in Scotland, by the Scottish Government focusing on devolved matters and allowing the UK Government to focus on reserved matters. Perhaps I may make so bold as to ask the noble Lord, Lord Foulkes, what his first agenda item would be in that first meeting with the new First Minister.

[Lord Haskel (Lab)]

Tell him!

[Lord Foulkes of Cumnock (Lab Co-op)]

I will. I also send my congratulations to Humza Yousaf on taking over what I am afraid he is going to find is a poisoned chalice. When the Secretary of State meets the First Minister, will he say quite clearly to him that, if he is genuine and sincere in wanting to co-operate constructively with the UK Government, they should get round the table and find an agreed way forward on gender reform and container recycling that is applicable for the whole United Kingdom? Those are my first two priorities—instead of expensive legal action paid for by the UK taxpayer, which will benefit only the lawyers and extreme separatists.

[Lord Offord of Garvel (Con)]

I thank the noble Lord for that very succinct agenda item, and that is exactly what is going to be addressed. The people of Scotland have two Governments, the UK Government and the Scottish Government, and there is very clear demarcation between the two as to how to make lives better. We have some very good examples of where we work very well together—in delivering freeports, city deals and investment zones—but there are some areas where we are in conflict, because we need the Scottish Government to recognise the unitary nature of the United Kingdom. We have come out of Europe and have a single market—they understand the single market very well—in the UK. That means that certain things are done on a unitary basis, whether it is that we drive on the left-hand side of the road or keep the same currency. But we also want common gender—we want to protect our trans community. People should not be designated a male in one country and a female in another. On trade that crosses borders, we do not want to have any borders for our trade, so a deposit return scheme that results in English craft beer manufacturers putting on their labels “Not for sale in Scotland” is not exactly the way forward for the United Kingdom. I would suggest that that would be the first topic on the agenda.

Scottish Government: Ultra Vires Expenditure

Debate between Lord Offord of Garvel and Lord Foulkes of Cumnock

Thursday 9th March 2023 Lords Chamber

[Lord Foulkes of Cumnock]

To ask His Majesty’s Government, further to the answer by Lord Offord of Garvel on 7 December 2022 (HL Deb col 171), whether they have received a report from the Cabinet Secretary on ultra vires expenditure by the Scottish Government; and what steps they are taking in respect of this matter.

[The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State, Scotland Office (Lord Offord of Garvel) (Con)]

I am sure that the noble Lord, Lord Foulkes, will agree with me that the people of Scotland want their two Governments to work and to concentrate all their attention and resources on the issues that matter most to them. That is why this Government are focused on tackling the cost of living by halving inflation and growing our economy. I hope the new First Minister will have the same ambitions and work constructively with us to deliver for the people of Scotland, with the Scottish Government focusing on devolved matters and allowing the UK Government to focus on reserved matters.

[Lord Foulkes of Cumnock (Lab Co-op)]

My Lords, I do agree with the Minister, but does the Minister agree with me that there is outrage in Scotland at the Scottish Government spending an increasing amount of money on reserved areas? I know he shares that concern, but he and the Secretary of State are the only ones who can do anything about it. Could he and the Secretary of State consider some arrangement for monitoring the expenditure of the Scottish Government, to make sure that all of it is spent on devolved areas, which are in great need of expenditure?

[Lord Offord of Garvel (Con)]

Well, I know that the noble Lord is dogmatic on this point, and we agree on many things. He is absolutely right to say that people in Scotland are absolutely focused on this matter as well. I would like to report that, since we last had this discussion, there have been, as there always have, discussions between the Cabinet Secretary and the Scottish Government’s Permanent Secretary. Therefore, issues and concerns have been raised to ensure the independence of the Civil Service. The noble Lord will be pleased to note, for example, that since he last raised this issue, the Scottish Government have reallocated £20 million they had set aside for an independence referendum to their fuel insecurity fund, which is a move I think we both welcome. Furthermore, the leading candidate in the SNP leadership election has just indicated that there will be a pause to any further independence papers—on the grounds that nobody reads them. Lastly, I can confirm that the Secretary of State for Scotland has met with the Foreign Secretary to discuss the Scottish Government’s activities internationally. Both are very clear that any overseas engagements by the Scottish Government should not encroach on reserved matters, and this will be kept under close review.

Scottish Independence

Debate between Lord Offord of Garvel and Lord Foulkes of Cumnock

Wednesday 7th December 2022 Lords Chamber

[Lord Foulkes of Cumnock]

To ask His Majesty’s Government what discussions they have had with the Scottish Government about that government’s policy paper Building a New Scotland: A stronger economy with independence, published on 17 October.

[The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State, Scotland Office (Lord Offord of Garvel) (Con)]

My Lords, I can answer the Question from the noble Lord, Lord Foulkes, by confirming that His Majesty’s Government have had no discussions with the Scottish Government about the recent policy paper entitled Building a New Scotland: A Stronger Economy with Independence, dated 22 October. This is the third of seven glossy documents currently being produced by the Scottish Government as they continue to bypass devolution by spending £20 million of taxpayers’ money and wasting civil servants’ time on matters reserved for the United Kingdom Government.

Last month, the Supreme Court gave a decisive, unanimous ruling that the Scottish Government have no legal competence to legislate on reserved matters. The constitution is clearly and unequivocally reserved to Westminster. It follows now that His Majesty’s Government calls on the Scottish Government to cease and desist from constantly crossing the line from devolved matters into reserved matters. As the Secretary of State for Scotland said last year in the other place:

“I think most right-minded Scots would agree that using civil service resources to design a prospectus for independence is the wrong thing to be doing at this time.”—[Official Report, Commons, 8/9/2021; col. 289.]

[Lord Foulkes of Cumnock (Lab Co-op)]

I am very grateful to the Minister for his reply: I could have written it myself. However, now that the Supreme Court has decided that the Scottish Government have no responsibility whatever for calling a referendum, surely the production of all these publications he described, and indeed the employment of so many civil servants, is ultra vires. Since it is the United Kingdom Government who have the ultimate responsibility for the propriety of the expenditure of all UK taxpayers’ money, when and how are they going to exercise this responsibility?

[Lord Offord of Garvel (Con)]

As the noble Lord was an active parliamentarian at that time, I am sure he can confirm that the devolution settlement enacted in the Scotland Act 1998 did not envisage a scenario where the Scottish Parliament in Holyrood would act in confrontation, instead of in co-operation, with Westminster. The Scotland Act assumed there would be a very clear demarcation between reserved and devolved matters, respected by both sides. Therefore, there are no penalties, fines or surcharges built into the parliamentary architecture for ultra vires activities of the sort previously described to the House by the noble Lord, Lord Forsyth, as applying, for example, to local councillors. However, I reassure noble Lords that this matter has now been reviewed at the highest reaches of the UK Civil Service.

Following the Supreme Court judgment, the United Kingdom Cabinet Secretary is in discussion with the Scottish Government’s Permanent Secretary on the role of the Civil Service in Scotland. My own observation from 15 months as a Minister in the Scotland Office is that if only we could get the Scottish Government focused on the day job of administering Scottish affairs in devolved areas and working in co-operation with the UK Government in reserved areas, there is no doubt in my mind that, working together, we could turbocharge Scotland.

Scottish Referendum Legislation: Supreme Court Judgement

Debate between Lord Offord of Garvel and Lord Foulkes of Cumnock

Thursday 24th November 2022 Lords Chamber

[The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State, Scotland Office (Lord Offord of Garvel) (Con)]

My Lords, the UK Government note and respect the unanimous ruling by the Supreme Court that the Scottish Government do not have legislative competence to hold a referendum. The people of Scotland want both our Governments to concentrate all our attention and resources on the issues that matter most to them. That is why we in the UK Government are focused on restoring economic stability, getting people the help they need with their bills and supporting our NHS. As the Prime Minister has made clear, we will continue to work constructively with the Scottish Government on tackling all the challenges that we share and face.

[Lord Foulkes of Cumnock (Lab Co-op)]

My Lords, is the Minister aware that the First Minister of Scotland has said that, although it is now clear that there is not going to be a referendum, she will continue to spend British taxpayers’ money on Civil Service and other preparations for this non-existent referendum? Is that not a disgrace, particularly today when teachers in Scotland are on strike because they are not getting enough of a pay increase?

[Lord Offord of Garvel (Con)]

The noble Lord will be aware that under the devolution settlement the UK Government do not prescribe to the Scottish Government how to spend the money sent north of the border. That allows the Scottish Government to make grown-up decisions on their own behalf and on behalf of the people of Scotland. The judgment of the Supreme Court has given us helpful clarity on the difference, which we all knew about, between reserved matters and devolved matters. The constitution is therefore clearly reserved, while the spending of £20 million in that area is a matter for the Scottish Government. The noble Lord will know that that could be the equivalent of 1,000 new nurses, 650 police officers or 600 teachers. On a day when schools are out on strike, it is for all of us to point out within the Scottish environment that the Scottish Government should be directing their attention to matters for which they have devolved responsibility.

Scottish Parliament: Independence Referendum

Debate between Lord Offord of Garvel and Lord Foulkes of Cumnock

Wednesday 20th July 2022 Lords Chamber

[Lord Foulkes of Cumnock]

To ask Her Majesty’s Government what is their current policy in respect of any request from the Scottish Parliament for a further referendum on independence.

[The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State, Scotland Office (Lord Offord of Garvel) (Con)]

My Lords, Her Majesty’s Government are clearly of the view that now is not the time to talk about another independence referendum in Scotland. People across Scotland want to see both our Governments working together on the issues that matter to them: tackling the cost of living, protecting our long-term energy security, leading the international response to Russia’s invasion of Ukraine and growing our economy so that everyone has access to opportunities, skills and jobs for the future.

[Lord Foulkes of Cumnock (Lab Co-op)]

My Lords, I am grateful to have a Scottish Minister answering this Question so well, but will he acknowledge that Boris Johnson, the candidates for the leadership of the Tory party and, even more importantly, Keir Starmer have all ruled out a second referendum, so there will not be one? Yet the Scottish Government are employing 20 civil servants and printing and producing party-political propaganda, using UK taxpayers’ money, in their campaign to break up Britain—Nicola Sturgeon is taking the UK Government for fools. So will the Minister take up his strong Scottish arm and ask the Prime Minister and, more importantly in this context, the head of the Civil Service to get the Scottish Government to stop this illegality and start spending the money that they get from British taxpayers on the services for which they are now responsible?

[Lord Offord of Garvel (Con)]

The noble Lord referenced the £20 million that the Scottish Government have ring-fenced and the 20 civil servants put together for this referendum. The minute the First Minister announced that she wanted to publish a prospectus for independence, the Secretary of State for Scotland said:

“right-minded Scots would agree that using civil service resources to design a prospectus for independence is the wrong thing to be doing at this time.”—[Official Report, Commons, 8/9/21; col. 289.]

In the meantime, there have been a number of glossy documents, the first of which was Independence in the Modern World. Wealthier, Happier, Fairer: Why Not Scotland? The SNP has been in power for 15 years, and we can see that Scotland is not wealthier, happier or fairer. We can go through the list: our education system—where I was educated—has gone from outstanding to average, there are record queues in the NHS, 20% of children live in poverty, and ferries are rusting on the Clyde while people cannot go on their holidays. The UK Government are firmly of the view that the Scottish Government should focus on the matters that Scottish people want them to deal with, which is how to make their lives better, and not fuss with another, pretend referendum.