Trade Union Bill

Lord Oates Excerpts

Thursday 25th February 2016 Lords Chamber

[Baroness Donaghy]

My Lords, I want to make some general points about the Government’s proposal on the Certification Officer in addition to the amendments, but first I thank my noble friend Lord Mendelsohn for such a comprehensive coverage of this subject. In my view the TUC summed it up: this is a disproportionate response to an unidentified problem, and I fully agree. The Minister will be pleased to know that although I am going to take slightly longer on this amendment, I will be as brief as possible on my technical and probing amendments later, which may give her an opportunity to think about the exit door and her throat; certainly before 7 pm and I hope a lot sooner.

My first point is one that I am sure everyone understands, but it needs to be put on the record. The Certification Officer is a public servant who carries out his work with diligence and integrity, and I am sure that all future postholders will do the same. We are not and should not be discussing the role of the individual CO. The officeholder will carry out whatever function the Government of the day give them, and I have no doubt that they will do that to the best of their ability. Secondly, I do not question the right of any Government to promote policies that change the nature of a post or a role, no matter how unnecessary and churlish those policies might be. Thirdly, I do not challenge the right of a Government to increase expenditure without providing the direct means to fund it. One could challenge the wisdom, but not the right.

However, I do challenge on the following matters: unfairness, lack of evidence, the one-sided nature of the proposals, the politicisation of the role of the Certification Officer, the necessity for any substantial change and, finally, the Kafkaesque proposal to make trade unions pay for unnecessary government-imposed red tape. On the issue of unfairness, I am grateful to the Equality and Human Rights Commission for supporting these amendments. Others will no doubt deal in more detail with the EHRC’s evidence, and indeed have already done so, but I shall just repeat the quotation given by my noble friend Lord Mendelsohn because it bears repeating. It states that,

“the new proactive character of the CO’s functions (i.e. the power to instigate, investigate and then adjudicate the same complaint) compromises the impartiality of the CO”.

The commission has dealt comprehensively with the problems caused by Clause 15 and I thank it for doing so.

The clause is one-sided because it will have very little impact on employers’ associations. According to the impact assessment, the familiarisation costs will be £2,400 to be met by 93 employer organisations. That represents 26p per employer organisation, although no doubt that will vary depending on the size of the employers’ association. So we are talking of an average of 26p per employer organisation. The estimated cost of familiarisation to the trade unions is £525,000. The actual levy of £1.9 million per year will be covered in secondary legislation, and there may be variations depending on the size of the trade union, any exemptions or other issues about which we have absolutely no knowledge. We will not be able to change it, and yet it will be of considerable importance to at least 7 million people. But if we look at the division of the cost of the levy between the trade unions and the employers’ associations based on the same division as the familiarisation costs, it comes out as 0.5% of the £1.9 million levy for employers’ associations and 99.5% of it to be met by the trade unions. That is why it is one-sided. I accept that the impact assessment may be completely wrong in its calculations, and I know that there is to be some consultation with employers and trade unions about the levy in the future. I ask that Cabinet guidelines be adhered to and that this will not be yet just another appearance at the August-fest.

The trade unions will have less money because of the ban on deduction from salaries and will be now levied for the bulk of expenditure that, up to now, has been paid from public funds. That is unfair. It will politicise the role of the CO because any third party will be able to ask for an investigation. The purpose of my amendments, and the probing amendments in the following groups, is to ensure that it is trade union members who can complain, not a daily newspaper or Conservative Central Office.

While I am on the subject, I ask the Minister whether there is a typing error on page 77 paragraph 280 of the impact assessment. Under “Rationale for Intervention”—it is “rationale” used in its loosest sense—it says:

“The main market failure arguments which underpin the existence of a regulator are externalities which occur because of union behaviour and imperfect information between employers and trade unions”.

That has to be a typo. If it is not, it reveals a worrying ignorance of the role of the CO. Surely it should read “employees and trade unions”. I hope that I can be reassured on this.

The impact assessment also comes out with the admirable understatement:

“It is likely that the Certification Officer may receive more representations from 3rd parties”.

There is an attempt to reassure us that the representations would need to meet the two tests that,

“the Certification Officer can only require documents if there is good cause to do so and can only investigate where there are circumstances to suggest that a union could be in breach of a duty”.

The impact assessment calculates that the increase in investigations as a result of these changes is likely to be limited. That may well be true of formal investigations, but that does not take into account the actual work involved processing any representations short of a formal investigation. This creates an unnecessary industry. There is no evidence whatever that anybody wants it, and, to add insult to injury, the trade unions will be picking up the tab for something that nobody wants.

[Lord Oates (LD)]

My Lords, I shall speak to the amendments in this group, in particular Amendments 98 and 99, and to the question that the clause stand part of the Bill. If I ever wondered why I joined a liberal party, almost every day that we have discussed the Bill I have been given a clear and stark reminder. Today is no different. Clause 15 goes to the heart of the role of free trade unions in a free and liberal society. State interference in the organisation of freely associated people should be contemplated only where there is compelling and overwhelming evidence that it is required.

The comparison between what is proposed here and the financial services industry, which the noble Lord, Lord Flight, made, is entirely specious. The banks beggared our economy and it was millions of trade unionists and other workers who paid the price. What was the first action of the Tory party in government freed from coalition? It was to let the bankers off the hook by reversing the change we had made in the coalition of reversing the burden of proof, and it was to go after the trade unions with this Bill. It says everything we need to know about the Tory party.

Returning to the amendments, a regulator exists in the form of the Certification Officer with a modest and proportional role. The powers and obligations on the regulator will be massively increased if the Government have their way and the grubby and grasping hand of state interference and control will have been further extended. A sensible, modest and proportionate regulator will have been turned into a monster capable—if not intent on—suffocating democratic trade unions in red tape. There will be a vast expansion of the powers and obligations of the Certification Officer. As noble Lords have said, he or she will now be investigator, prosecutor and adjudicator, compelled to investigate the complaints not of trade union members but of any third-party complainant. An array of right-wing organisations and individuals are doubtless preparing their vexatious complaints, led—I have no doubt—by the TaxPayers’ Alliance. Why is this happening? What evidence has been brought forward to justify this unwarranted new interference in the operation of free trade unions? The Government proffer none. The current Certification Officer says that there is none.

In the Select Committee, my noble friend Lord Wrigglesworth asked the Certification Officer where he thought the pressure had come from. He replied that he had no evidence of pressure for change—although, to be fair to the Government, they would have had no way of knowing that prior to the Bill being published. Why would they not have known? Because, as the noble Lord, Lord Mendelsohn, noted, at the same Select Committee hearing the noble Lord, Lord Richard, asked the Certification Officer whether he had been consulted, and he replied that he had not been consulted. The transcript shows that the noble Lord, Lord Richard, then asked him again—one assumes incredulously—“You were not consulted at all?”. The answer was no. The Certification Officer—the person you assume would have been the first port of call to whom any Government actually interested in the evidence before them would have gone before even considering legislation—had not been consulted at all. That is astonishing—or at least it would be if we had the slightest thought that the Government’s intentions in this Bill were to address a genuine problem. Those are not their intentions. Every clause after those relating to the thresholds—the merits of which you could argue one way or the other; personally, I think they are unnecessary—is a nakedly partisan attack on free trade unions and the main opposition party. Although those trade unions and the main opposition party have often done no favours to the Liberal Democrats, there is something more important at stake here—the nature of our democracy.

Clause 15 will significantly increase the burdens on the regulator and on trade unions. The Certification Officer made clear in the evidence he gave that, in his opinion, as far as he could judge, the costs of the regulator would rise at least fourfold. Can the Minister explain to us how that can be justified? And can she explain on what basis she thinks it right that such a stark increase in the costs should be passed on to the trade unions instead of the Exchequer? For example, does she think that the Conservative Party should pay the costs of the Electoral Commission, or MPs pay the costs of IPSA? These are the relevant comparators. It might be reasonable to charge a levy on trade unions when the regulator was simply looking at members’ complaints, but it is most certainly not in the circumstances we are discussing.

The impact assessment is very weak on justification. It can claim only this justification:

“The actions of unions can have wider impacts beyond their membership and their operations may not always be transparent to the wider public”.

I could as easily replace the word “unions” with the words “Conservative Party”. Given the number of times we have heard the Government justify their position on this Bill by the claim that they have a mandate provided by the Conservative manifesto, might the public not have a legitimate interest in knowing how the content of that manifesto is decided? Should it, for example, be determined by an all-postal ballot of its members? Should there be a 50% threshold, and perhaps an additional threshold requirement that at least 40% of eligible members vote on any section determined to be nakedly partisan?

Given that less than 25% of eligible voters supported the Conservative manifesto at the last election, should the public not at least know that it was properly considered and voted on by Conservative members? Perhaps we should introduce amendments to that effect. But no, of course not. The state should not interfere in the operations of a voluntary association of citizens, unless there is a compelling and overwhelming need to do so. The Conservative Party used to believe that. Indeed, many on the Conservative Benches still do, as evidenced by their contributions in our previous discussion, but Ministers seem to have forgotten it. I appeal to my friends in the Government—if I still have any left after the Bill—to recall that traditional Conservative belief and to drop this obnoxious clause.

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[Lord Oates]

Has the noble Baroness consulted the Certification Officer in this respect? The evidence that he gave to the Select Committee does not suggest that his view is in line with hers. He was certainly concerned about judicial review if he did not investigate third-party complaints properly.

[Baroness Neville-Rolfe]

As I have said, we are planning ongoing discussions with the Certification Officer, and it will be sensible to revisit that point. But this is the way that we see it in the light of practice in other regulatory areas. I add, if I have not said it already, that enforcement decisions will remain subject to appeal. I suppose that that was the point the noble Lord was making—we have to be careful with systems of appeal.

The Certification Officer reports on the complaints he or she considers in an annual report, which is submitted to Parliament. His or her activity and decisions can therefore be the subject of public scrutiny.

The setting up of a separate body to oversee the Certification Officer’s work would, I believe, create additional costs and increase legislative complexity. It could slow down action, allow genuine complaints to go on for longer without being addressed, which is the last thing we want, and go too far in the regulatory direction—noble Lords will be glad to hear me say that.

We will be discussing the levy on a later amendment, but—to respond briefly to the noble Baroness, Lady Donaghy—there is no intention to penalise anyone. The system simply has to recover the costs of its constituent expenses. The Bill provides scope for regulations to provide for different amounts to be charged. This will be deployed if the proportion of functions provided by the Certification Officer to certain organisations is different. That is proportionate and fair, and in line with Treasury guidance. Whether the regulations will specify that different amounts are to be charged in these circumstances will be subject to the outcome of consultation, which seems the right approach. I believe that setting up an entirely separate body to oversee the Certification Officer’s work would be unnecessary.

I have managed to get through my speech without another Fisherman’s Friend, and I ask the noble Lord to withdraw the amendment.

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[Baroness Donaghy]

I shall speak also to Amendments 102, 103 and 105. Amendment 101 goes over some of the ground that we have already covered. It would restrict the power to require the production of documents to the Certification Officer and his or her staff. Amendment 102 would require a complaint to be made by a union member and for the Certification Officer reasonably to believe there was evidence of a breach of an obligation before he or she initiated an investigation. Amendment 103 would require a person investigating a breach of an obligation by a union to be a member of the staff of the Certification Officer and not “other persons” as vaguely written in the Bill. Amendment 105 would require the interim report of the person investigating a breach of an obligation by a union to be sent to the union concerned, which is a new point and, if anything, represents the one improvement in the whole area of the schedule.

The concern is that the Certification Officer and inspectors will have wide-ranging powers to demand the production of union documents and access to membership records, members’ names and addresses and correspondence between a member and their union, even though no union member has raised a complaint about the union’s practices. I am also seriously concerned that the evidence threshold that needs to be met before these wide-ranging powers are triggered is very low. The CO will be able to demand access to documents if he or she thinks there is good reason to do so. The CO would not need to have substantial evidence demonstrating that the union has breached any statutory obligations. Requests for union documentation would not be limited to union head offices, and the CO and any appointed inspectors would also be able to approach branch offices and regional offices to request documents.

These powers represent a serious violation of union members’ rights to privacy, as protected by Article 6 of the European Convention on Human Rights, as has already been said. Many individuals do not want their employer or, indeed, the state to know that they are a member of a union for fear of victimisation or blacklisting which, as my noble friend Lord Mendelsohn said, unfortunately still exists today. The Bill may therefore deter individuals joining unions and benefiting from effective representation at work. This will undermine the right to freedom of association. I know that the Minister has said that this information will be confidential to the Certification Officer, but that is not necessarily the perception that will be held by individual union members, who will fear that the information may get out to the public, particularly if they find out that the complaint or investigation has been initiated by a national newspaper or a political party. Perceptions are extremely important on that. It is not surprising that, as the noble Lord, Lord Ouseley, has already referred to, the ILO committee of experts has called on the Government to account for their proposal to increase the powers of the Certification Officer.

I hope the Minister will understand that it is quite important from the point of view of the standing of the Certification Officer that any complaints are confined to union members. I do not think there is a case for any external inquiries. If anyone in the public thinks that there is some illegality going on in the unions, there are different ways of investigating that which have nothing to do with employment relations. I beg to move.

[Lord Oates]

My Lords, I shall speak particularly to Amendment 104 in the names of my noble friends Lord Stoneham of Droxford and Lady Burt of Solihull. We have discussed the serious concerns about the nature of the changed powers of the regulator. A particular concern has been expressed about the power to appoint a person or persons who are not members of the Certification Officer’s staff, and about the severe financial burdens that could be placed on trade unions as a result if organisations such as big accountants’ firms, lawyers or others were to be used.

The amendment tabled by my noble friends simply sets out a sensible way—which the Government could accept if they insist on going forward with this clause and these schedules—of ensuring that proper consideration is given to the proportionality of making the appointment, the cost of appointing the person or persons, and their impartiality. This would be very important in reassuring trade unionists. I hope the Minister will feel able to consider the amendment very seriously and adopt it.

[Lord Mendelsohn]

My Lords, I thank my noble friend Lady Donaghy and congratulate her on some excellent amendments, which naturally I strongly support. I also support the amendment in the names of the noble Lord, Lord Stoneham, and the noble Baroness, Lady Burt.

This group of amendments focuses on the practicalities of the proposed changes to the Certification Officer and their staff. They would further secure the impartiality of the Certification Officer in maintaining an approach by staff to investigations that is free from bias and undue influence. In order to give trade union members assurances over the security of any personal information supplied, it is vital that the power to require the production of documents remains solely that of the Certification Officer and his or her staff. That is what Amendment 101 seeks to achieve. Contracting out investigatory powers and the handling of sensitive information may not only jeopardise the independent standing of the Certification Officer but leave trade unions vulnerable to the misuse of their data.

That potential problem relates directly to the issues raised in the following amendments. There must be a requirement for a person investigating a breach of an obligation by a union to be a member of the staff of the Certification Officer, not simply “other persons” as the Bill currently states. Amendments 103 and 104 would add yet further safety measures for occasions when the Certification Officer appointed as an inspector someone who was not a member of his or her staff. The Certification Officer must have proper regard to the proportionality of making such an appointment, the cost of the appointment and, importantly, the impartiality of the person, which is naturally a matter of deep concern given the political nature of all the issues involved in the appointment.

There is nothing in the Bill to stop the Certification Officer hiring what is vaguely described as “other persons” to take part in an investigation. That leaves us without any safeguards against the hiring of a person who may have a particular political leaning or history of working against trade unions. Without appointees being directly employed by and accountable to the Certification Officer, how can the Government ensure that the investigations will be consistently impartial? This point is critical to the accountability and independence of the Certification Officer.

Reflecting the threat of malicious complaints, as mentioned in discussion on the previous group, standards must also be set to gauge the validity of any complaints. Not only should complaints be made by a union member but the Certification Officer must have reason to believe that there is adequate evidence of a breach of an obligation before they initiate an investigation. Again, this would protect everyone involved from wasting time on deliberately unfounded complaints.

In an effort genuinely to increase openness and transparency, the Certification Officer or the person investigating any breach of an obligation by a union should be required to produce an interim report, which would be sent to the union concerned. This allows for a truly open process and for communication from the Certification Officer to the union concerned, which ultimately would pave the way for a quicker and smoother resolution.

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[Lord Balfe]

I will not admit to whether I am a nook or a cranny, but I thank the noble Baroness for that.

The impact assessment says that the Secretary of State is,

“to be given a power to make affirmative regulations … The regulations will include a requirement for the Secretary of State to consult trade unions and employer associations on how the fees should be calculated”.

Could the Minister give us any indication about what level of consultation of trade unions will take place?

The impact assessment then says in paragraph 287:

“They will also limit the fees to cost recovery, and provide that the membership size of trade unions … may be taken into account when the fees are calculated”.

This is obviously quite important, and I will come back to it in a minute. It then goes on to say, in paragraph 294:

“The change to the operations of the Certification Officer will not change the costs faced by compliant unions”.

I am not sure I understand that, because if the costs are going to go up, that must surely change the fees, because they will have to go up to meet them. In paragraph 295, the assessment repeats what it says in paragraph 287:

“The mechanism in which the levy will be calculated will be consulted on with trade unions and employer associations”.

Can the Minister give us some idea of how that will take place?

A little further on, paragraph 297 says that,

“secondary legislation will set out how the levy will operate in more detail … a further impact assessment will be needed for the secondary legislation”.

Could the Minister give us some idea as to where we are with that impact assessment? Is it in process and will it be produced after the legislation is adopted? What will happen?

Finally, paragraph 299 says:

“The design of the levy will consider the inclusion of specified criteria such as the number of members or amount of income an organisation has”.

I have raised this privately with the Minister, but make no secret of the fact that a number of these smaller unions are concerned at the impact this levy will have on them. Particular concern has been raised with me by a number of the smaller unions about the difference in costs that could be incurred because a large union with a political fund—for example, Unite—could end up costing the regulator a lot more to regulate than a smaller union without a political fund, such as the British Dental Association.

I am sure that the Minister cannot say anything tonight, but I would like her to agree, in working out how the levy is to be apportioned, to look, first, at giving due regard to these smaller unions—hopefully some sort of graded system will be introduced. Secondly, will consideration at least be given in the consultation to the fact that unions that have chosen to have a political fund, which is of course regulated separately, should pay an extra part of the levy so that, in other words, the levy for the supervision of the political fund will not be placed on unions that do not have a political fund?

I know that these are rather small and technical points, but they are quite vital to small trade unions. If you are looking at a fourfold increase in costs, and these costs being placed on the unions for the first time, coming on top of other costs that they have recently had placed on them, this is a serious financial burden for the smaller unions in the TUC. Many of those smaller unions, which represent important professional subgroups within the population, play an extremely important part. Some people will say that they can always be taken over by big unions but that, to my mind, is not the solution. The smaller unions of this country play an extraordinarily important part in safeguarding the pay and conditions and bringing the detailed knowledge to bear for important groups of largely, I confess, highly professional workers. They do a valuable job, and in constituting this levy and working out where it falls, I hope that the Minister can assure us that due regard will be given to the points I have raised.

[Lord Oates]

I shall speak in particular to Clause 18 stand part in this group of amendments. We have considerable concerns about the shift of responsibility for the costs of the Certification Officer from the Exchequer to the trade unions. The Certification Officer estimated the cost of the levy to be £2 million to the department. But as he said in his evidence to the Select Committee, this is very much a provisional view. He said that,

“we are warning our funders, ACAS, that we may ask for more money … Apparently, you should do only a certain amount of forward planning while the legislation is at Bill stage, as you cannot move forward too quickly with public expenditure at that point”.

I do not know whether that reflects what he was told by the department. Of course there is a cost to the unions, not just of the Certification Officer but also of the additional resources that they will have to put in to answering complaints when third-party complaints are added.

The Minister has made references to and comparisons with other regulators whose members have to pay the fees. Perhaps she could answer a few questions. First is the question I raised earlier to which I do not think I have yet had a response. Why is it right for trade unions to pay a levy to be regulated but not political parties? I am not suggesting that political parties should pay for being regulated by the Electoral Commission, but they do not. It is not right to make comparisons with the Charity Commission or, indeed, any other area because the trade unions are involved in a political arena. It will be more so if third-party complaints are allowed, as a series of partisan and politically motivated complaints will be made.

If the Government insist on pushing this levy on to trade unions, will the Minister look again at the issues relating to third-party complaints? Will she, for example, look at excluding the costs of investigating those complaints from the levy that the trade unions have to pay? Will she look at restricting the scope of third-party complaints? For example, will the Government consider excluding complainants who are members of political parties unless they are also members of the relevant union? That would help exclude some of the partisan complaints that will inevitably be generated.

Will the Government also exclude organisations which refuse to publish their funding sources? I am thinking of the TaxPayers’ Alliance, which we know is very keen on this Bill—one of the few organisations that is. As I understand it, it will be eligible to make complaints against unions relating to details of union finances while refusing to divulge where its funding comes from—as it does at present. That cannot be right. Will the Minister look into that?

Finally, I comment on the irony, given that the partisan nature of the Bill was designed in the Exchequer—in the Chancellor’s office—that it is the trade unions who are having the cost shoved from the Exchequer on to them. That is simply not right.

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[Baroness Neville-Rolfe]

My Lords, I thank all noble Lords who have been engaged in this very long debate today. On the final point that the noble Lord made, clearly, this Bill brings together a number of provisions that were promised in our manifesto, on which we were elected last year. There are important changes here but, as I said at Second Reading, and as I have reiterated over these four days in Committee, we are listening. We may be able to make some changes—this is very much a listening part of the process.

This clause provides a regulation-making power to enable the Certification Officer to charge a levy to recover the cost of his or her expenses. It is only fair that the cost of the regulatory functions provided by the Certification Officer fall on those who are regulated rather than on the taxpayer. We are, of course, applying this reform to employers’ associations as well as trade unions.

[Lord Oates]

Could the Minister explain why it is right in the case of the trade unions and not in the case of the Electoral Commission and political parties?

[Baroness Neville-Rolfe]

My Lords, government is not always logical, and while some regulators receive public funding many do not. In fact, increasingly few regulatory areas are paid for by government. We do not think it appropriate for the costs to fall on the taxpayer. We are going to set out our proposals. The clause requires consultation with relevant organisations, such as the TUC and ACAS, before making regulations. We will ensure that there is consultation, so we can achieve a levy that is proportionate and appropriate. I would envisage a consultation document, which can go to those concerned; that is always the sort of approach I favour in the areas where I have responsibility. An impact assessment will be published, as has been said, and the normal process is to publish that with the draft regulations, which of course will come before this House in due course, setting out the arrangements for the levy. We should also ensure that ACAS and the trade unions have a reasonable period of time in which to consider the detailed proposals, particularly in the light of the discussion taking place today.

This legislation is about trade union reform, and I do not think that the point about political parties, which I know is made with great vehemence by the noble Lord, Lord Oates, is a matter for this legislation.

It is important—and perhaps I can explain technically—that the Bill does not prescribe the amount. The Certification Officer needs to decide each year how much he or she needs to be charging to cover the cost of performing the functions for that year, adhering to the framework that is prescribed in regulations made under the Bill. It is common for legislation that introduces a levy or fees to require that the detail be set either in regulations or by the relevant regulator. This is standard practice and recognises that it is simply not possible to be too prescriptive in the primary legislation.

It is right that we do not attempt to limit the flexibility the Bill currently provides to apply one or more of these parameters until there has been proper statutory consultation. Let me give an example. We recognise that trade unions can vary greatly in size. Smaller unions and employer associations may require less of the Certification Officer’s time and resources, as my noble friend Lord Balfe said. We want the scope to be able to consider whether those who use more of the officer’s time should bear more of the cost, thereby reducing the amount of levy payable by smaller organisations. My noble friend Lord Balfe asked me to look at a point about political funds, and we can certainly consider that as part of the consultation. We will consider very carefully during the statutory consultation whether the amount of levy payable should be proportionate to the trade union or employer association’s income. It should take into account affordability for the smallest unions.

Amendments 118 to 121 seek to change that magic word, which the noble Lord, Lord Mendelsohn, knows so well, “may” to “must”, so that all the potential criteria in the Bill would have to be applied in setting the framework for the levy—I am afraid my sore throat is getting going again. That limits the flexibility to ensure that the power operates effectively, which is particularly important as we have a statutory duty first to consult.

On Amendment 121A, I appreciate noble Lords’ desire for there to be some control over the amount, but there are safeguards that act to control the amount of investigation that the Certification Officer could undertake. Most importantly, he will be able to investigate only where there is good reason to do so. Third parties have no statutory right to complain. The changes allow the Certification Officer to investigate in respect of information he receives that may be from a third party.

The officer has had the power to launch investigations into a union’s financial affairs for many years, and it has not been suggested that it has been used disproportionately. He or she will also be required to report annually on the amount levied and how it was determined. These reports are laid before both Houses. By way of further safeguards: the amount of the levy will be limited to cost recovery; unions and employer associations will be consulted before the framework for the levy is determined; and regulations to enable the Certification Officer to charge the levy will be subject to the affirmative procedure, allowing a full debate in Parliament, which I much look forward to. In these circumstances, I ask the noble Baroness to withdraw her amendment.