Lord Mendelsohn
Main Page: Lord Mendelsohn (Labour - Life peer)Trade Union Bill
Lord Mendelsohn Excerpts(8 years, 9 months ago)
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Lord Stoneham of Droxford (LD)
My Lords, I too hope that this session provides a little light relief for the Minister, who has had quite a hard time through various sessions of the Bill. It has been a bit like a series of one-sided OK Corrals. Over lunch, I thought I might ask the Minister whether she has any genes from Stonewall Jackson, that great Confederate general. The other metaphorical point I would make is that he ended up being shot by his own side—accidentally. I hope the Government at least allow the Minister to make the concessions in the Bill which will be her salvation.
Amendment 97A is welcome in providing a wider debate on where we are going and I would like to make a number of points. Employment engagement is very important to improving the country’s competitive position, and to improving services in the public sector. As someone who has been in industry, I certainly feel that we have far too much dependence on adversarial systems and processes—I sense this in our politics as well—when engagement and working together on problems normally provides much better solutions.
I am certainly one of those who welcomes unions and sees their important role in society and industry but, sadly, the reality is that although the unions remain strong in the public sector they have become weak in the private sector. However we may regret that, we have to make the point that although unions are important there has also to be a diversity of systems that can work well. We see that in companies such as Marks & Spencer and John Lewis, and many foreign-owned companies where processes have been developed not necessarily strictly through recognised trade unions. This is very important in the public sector, where we in this country will no longer have a great and dominant manufacturing sector—although we might like to aspire to that—but will be much more dependent on services. That requires the motivation of employees and will be especially important in the public sector; it is certainly important in the private sector. That is why an adversarial system is no longer totally relevant to improving industrial relations.
I welcome the spirit of this amendment, the thinking behind it and the opportunity to have a general debate, however briefly, on this important subject.
Lord Mendelsohn (Lab)
I congratulate and thank my noble friend Lady Prosser for introducing this amendment and will set out why it is particularly important. It was a sheer pleasure in the previous debate to listen to the contribution of the noble Lord, Lord Balfe, and to the good sense that came from all parts of the Chamber. I hope that the Government are very much in listening mode and can perhaps hear a case for change. I will set out why the Bill merits some sort of change.
An interesting feature of the coalition Government was that every year, we would read in the papers and in blogs that Conservative Ministers would present this very Bill to Liberal Democrat Ministers. Each year, they would say, “Together, we could do in the Labour Party, which would undoubtedly be to our benefit”. Each year, to their considerable credit, the Liberal Democrats would block the Bill. I am sure that some noble Lords present today were witnesses to this annual event. It was no surprise that the Government, given the opportunity, chose to use a huge legislative sledgehammer to target—and in some ways to torture and weaken—their perceived enemies or to make life a little difficult.
This is unfortunate, not just for the well-being of those who are perceived to be the enemies but because it highlights that the Bill has yet to pass a strong public interest test. During our debates, we looked at the “will the sky fall in?” test. It probably will not, but we have certainly not met the “unattractive consequences” test. We have had a good debate about the impact on the regions and on devolution, and whether or not this will weaken the union; I do not think it has met the test that it will not. We also had a debate about what the point of this is, and looked at whether it passes the test of minimising the harm it might cause.
However, the Bill does need to pass the “making a positive difference” test—not just to trade union members but to the public and the national interest. This is what this amendment is about: the role and work of trade unions in a modern society. As a businessman, I would say that this is also about the massive opportunity we have to use workforces and trade unions for better purposes. The Bill has a stunning lack of meaningful objectives, such as targets, goals or definable and provable outcomes. We have seen repeatedly that there is no evidence to establish that there is a problem to justify the solutions. There is no cost-benefit analysis and no meaningful consideration of the consequences of its measures. It lays regulation on obligation on cost on restriction on complication on Whitehall centralisation. It really is time for a bit of light.
The amendment also passes a very important legislative test, which is that it tempers the Bill with proportionality, purpose, principle and practicality. I strongly believe that government Front-Benchers in this House have clean fingerprints on the design of this Bill. They are respected in this House and do credit to a tradition in their political party and to our country’s political culture and traditions—the debate we had earlier attests to that. I have been very encouraged by the debates during Committee and the strong consensus for changes to the Bill in so many areas, but I fear that the dull hand of the other House will compress the capacity of our House to ameliorate the Bill and that the power of the arguments made so ably by so many will not receive the proper response. I hope Members there are listening not just to what we say about the measures they have introduced but to this very welcome addition.
In that capacity, I am very pleased to see the noble Baroness, Lady Finn, in her place. She of course plays a very important role as a special adviser with a particular responsibility supporting the Minister of State for Skills in the Department for Business, Innovation and Skills on trade union reform—a kind of facility time for the Conservative Party. It is very important for the message to be conveyed to the Minister and to those who have held the debates in the other House that there is an opportunity here to do something which restores a bit of balance and addresses the great tragedy of the Bill, which is that it is not about reform for a great purpose.
Lord Mendelsohn
Lord Mendelsohn (Lab)
My Lords, I cannot resist making one point on employee engagement. As we move on to the Certification Officer, the measures that we are about to debate would certainly have hugely benefited from some form of employee engagement. I noted in the evidence of the Certification Officer of 9 February to the Select Committee on Trade Union Political Funds and Political Party Funding that he was asked whether he was consulted about the measures that related to party funding. He said:
“No, I was not consulted”.
He was asked a broader question on whether he was consulted at all and he said, “Not before the Bill”. These measures have the hallmark of something that would have greatly benefited from being examined carefully, and if advice, experience and evidence had been sought from the Certification Officer.
The Trade Union and Labour Relations (Consolidation) Act 1992 clearly intended that the Certification Officer should be accountable primarily to trade union members and that he was to codify reports on compliance, have powers of investigation and intervention and deal with complaints. With the breaches of any rules, remedies were underpinned by law. Indeed, the noble Lord, Lord Forsyth, in the previous debate, gave us a very good understanding of how this was to deal with the issue of a significant foundation about how members felt about the unions and where the unions were. We can certainly agree with that. But we now move on to something where we are substantially and almost completely changing the role and function of the Certification Officer and muddying the waters tremendously.
In his evidence, the Certification Officer was asked about whether the problems about complaints were consistent with his understanding. He said:
“All rules can be improved. No one has complained to me at any time that they have been impaired in making a complaint or pursuing what they want to do. Of course, that does not mean that they do not feel that way—it is just that it has not been reported to me. The answer to the first part of your question is that I am not sure; there is no evidence of that”.
He went on to say:
“The Bill approaches it from a totally different perspective. They are not trying to tinker with what exists; they want a new model. I do not think it is fair to say that it is successful or not successful in perfecting the existing model”.
Lord Flight (Con)
My Lords, I have a great deal of sympathy with long-standing trade union members on the other side of the Committee. First, who really likes change, and, secondly, who really wants more regulation? Our whole economy is tied up in string with regulation. It was a delight to hear Labour shadow Ministers arguing against more regulation and complaining about regulators being investigators, prosecutors and adjudicators, which I assure him they are in practice across most areas of regulation, whatever little committees might exist to alleviate it.
We are in a world where institutions that serve the public and with which the public has dealings are regulated, and increasingly so. I am afraid that I do not really see any logic as to why the trade union movement should have special exemption from regulation. Trade unions have the scope to break the law, they have the scope to do things that they should not do and they have the scope to cause inconvenience to the public. Therefore, to argue that they are a world unto themselves is not valid. Some regulation may be needed to protect members from being overlorded by their trade union leaders.
Under the provisions of the Bill, the enhanced powers of the Certification Officer are meek and mild. They are extraordinarily modest in comparison with the powers of regulators in other sectors. The noble Lord should just try working in the financial services sector if he has not done so already. Everyone spends their whole time looking over their shoulder for fear that they are going to break a regulation. There are so many regulations, comprising something like 4 million words and I have forgotten how many tomes.
Lord Mendelsohn
I do work in the financial services sector. I operate under the FCA and am a regulated individual.
Lord Flight
I am glad to hear that; the noble Lord will know all about it then. But he is probably about to enter the new senior managers’ regime where he will find that the extent of his regulation will increase substantially.
If really heavy-handed regulation was being imposed on trade unions, there would be a fair argument. However, what is in the Bill is very meek.
Baroness Neville-Rolfe
As I have said, we are planning ongoing discussions with the Certification Officer, and it will be sensible to revisit that point. But this is the way that we see it in the light of practice in other regulatory areas. I add, if I have not said it already, that enforcement decisions will remain subject to appeal. I suppose that that was the point the noble Lord was making—we have to be careful with systems of appeal.
The Certification Officer reports on the complaints he or she considers in an annual report, which is submitted to Parliament. His or her activity and decisions can therefore be the subject of public scrutiny.
The setting up of a separate body to oversee the Certification Officer’s work would, I believe, create additional costs and increase legislative complexity. It could slow down action, allow genuine complaints to go on for longer without being addressed, which is the last thing we want, and go too far in the regulatory direction—noble Lords will be glad to hear me say that.
We will be discussing the levy on a later amendment, but—to respond briefly to the noble Baroness, Lady Donaghy—there is no intention to penalise anyone. The system simply has to recover the costs of its constituent expenses. The Bill provides scope for regulations to provide for different amounts to be charged. This will be deployed if the proportion of functions provided by the Certification Officer to certain organisations is different. That is proportionate and fair, and in line with Treasury guidance. Whether the regulations will specify that different amounts are to be charged in these circumstances will be subject to the outcome of consultation, which seems the right approach. I believe that setting up an entirely separate body to oversee the Certification Officer’s work would be unnecessary.
I have managed to get through my speech without another Fisherman’s Friend, and I ask the noble Lord to withdraw the amendment.
Lord Mendelsohn
My Lords, let me deal first with the two chinks of light. The first was that the Minister said that the Government will look at the arrangements where the Certification Officer absorbs all the investigatory and adjudication roles. Secondly, her case against having someone to look independently at adjudications as a means of oversight—the case against the enforcement of human rights—was that it was too regulatory. That breaches the principle that she is espousing in the first place. I do not think that the case has been made for regulation, and I do not really understand the architecture for the regulator. I do not understand the model or where we are going on this. I do not think the Minister has made a case for where there are comparable institutions or why, just because this impacts on the public realm, this is a proportionate role and one with any appropriate objectives.
The noble Lord, Lord Flight, tried to make a case for regulation—bizarre as I felt it was. We believe in better regulation—sometimes less, sometimes more— but there has to be a case for it, and there is not for this measure. The point about why this is different from general consumer or other rights matters was extremely well made by the noble Baroness, Lady O’Neill, who has made it before. We are dealing with fundamental rights, which are vastly different to the other sorts of rights that the noble Lord was addressing. I do not think that the Government have taken that point on board at all.
I am very concerned about this extension, because it cuts to the heart of our debate. It is not really about members who are not getting the right service and ensuring that unions are operating properly within the rules. We just have to read the impact assessment, which, it is now apparent, was written long after the Bill was published, without consulting any expert and with no real evidence. It identifies, as does the Bill, the particular areas that it covers as: political fund rules, political fund ballots and expenditure on political objectives. Then there are the areas that the Minister was prepared to address: union mergers, internal elections and other such things. It is absolutely clear that this is targeted at political matters.
The Minister has not addressed the warnings that came from the Certification Officer. In his same evidence to the Select Committee—we could almost recite his entire evidence and ask the Minister to respond to it—he talked about the growing uncertainty caused by the legislation:
“In my experience, uncertainty gives way to litigation, and there are a number of issues that could give rise to uncertainty. It is not only members who can complain to me about these things; anyone can raise them with me. Given the political nature of the subject matter, which is likely to be highly contentious, and the fact that what is reported to me is likely to be forensically examined, I can see many more issues being brought to me about what is reported”.
The nature of trying to open up all political matters provides a completely different sense of what the Government want the Certification Officer to do. It is about the regulation of people’s free right and ability to join together and have political views, and they want third parties to be able to intervene on them. That is wrong.
The noble Lord, Lord Stoneham, made exactly the right point about the cases raised in the Certification Officer’s report. There were 19 complaints, and four declarations were made that a union had breached or threatened to breach its rules. What were those issues? The cases of note that the Certification Officer addresses are: case 1, union disciplinary procedures; case 2, internal disciplinary procedures; case 3, the elections for general secretary and issues relating to members in long-term arrears; case 4, internal disciplinary procedures; case 5, internal disciplinary procedures; and case 6, a removal from office of an official. All of a sudden, every third party is now going to have a chance to raise issues on every political matter. That is just not credible.
Baroness Neville-Rolfe
My Lords, I have dealt with the issue of vexatious claims. Whenever you try to modernise a regulator—and this is a regulator, albeit not the Financial Conduct Authority—the people who are regulated obviously have concerns. We are debating those concerns, but that does not mean to say that the extra regulation we are bringing in, which does not seem nearly as wide-ranging as everybody is suggesting, is unnecessary. Noble Lords should remember that the accuracy of trade union membership registers affects the results of ballots and other very important things. These matter to the economy.
Lord Mendelsohn
I accept the last point, but the report itself demonstrates that there are no problems with that. What is the case for any additional intervention? Can the Minister present me with evidence of any particular case or circumstance—anything, a report or a press cutting? I shall go on for a bit longer to give her the chance to respond on that point.
Lord Stoneham of Droxford
May I assist the noble Lord by pointing out that one area in which we will have more disputes is ballots, because of the Government’s determination to get rid of check-off?
Lord Mendelsohn
That is another extremely good point from the noble Lord, Lord Stoneham.
Baroness Neville-Rolfe
The truth is that at the moment the only people who can complain are the members. We are not hiding the fact that there is a change here, so you might have extra complaints, but I think that that is right if we are going to get this regulatory area correct, because of the wider point I was making. I have to say, I do not think we are going to agree on this issue. I look forward to hearing the noble Lord’s final comments, as we have a number of other amendments to move on to.
Lord Mendelsohn
I thank the Minister for asking me to hurry up, but I am going to take my time in addressing this, because this is our main opportunity to deal with the major points of principle—although, as I said, we will get on to some more technical matters. She has not made a case or provided evidence, and it is worth continuing to probe these issues. The evidence is there in the Certification Officer’s comments that at this stage, in their obligations to collate that material and in the penalties and breaches available, unions are not transgressing and there is no such case. That is a very important principle. She raised a series of issues, and I am very happy to receive a letter establishing that they warrant the grounds on which the regulation of penalties on such measures can be extended, and include political matters. The key point is that it is not just about the regulation of those matters; she is trying to regulate the ability to have a political view together, and to associate. That is the fundamental difference. It is not about regulating other things or about the ability of a board of directors to have a particular view; it is just about trade unions. That is fundamental and really important.
Turning finally to the important issue of costs, the Minister is not on the same page as the Certification Officer, but I will be happy to receive a letter about that, as I am sure other noble Lords will be. The impact assessment refers to the great benefits—including the fine revenue and the levy revenue, although it does not give a figure for the investigation cost levied on trade unions—and identifies extra costs that are much lower than those identified by the Certification Officer: much lower even than if you established the nature of the cases and the type of evidence she is now expecting unions to pay to assemble, to their detriment. It is very important that she understands that my fundamental problem with how the cost-benefit analysis is presented is that at the very end it says, under benefits, that members of the public will benefit from a strongly regulated regime. Members of the unions will not—they will be burdened by the shackles of cost and by a greater interference from vexatious claims, and probably ministerial interference or direction from the Certification Officer. It is not clear that there is a public benefit at all. We will certainly come back to this issue on Report, and I ask her to think again very carefully about it. I beg leave to withdraw the amendment.
Lord Oates
My Lords, I shall speak particularly to Amendment 104 in the names of my noble friends Lord Stoneham of Droxford and Lady Burt of Solihull. We have discussed the serious concerns about the nature of the changed powers of the regulator. A particular concern has been expressed about the power to appoint a person or persons who are not members of the Certification Officer’s staff, and about the severe financial burdens that could be placed on trade unions as a result if organisations such as big accountants’ firms, lawyers or others were to be used.
The amendment tabled by my noble friends simply sets out a sensible way—which the Government could accept if they insist on going forward with this clause and these schedules—of ensuring that proper consideration is given to the proportionality of making the appointment, the cost of appointing the person or persons, and their impartiality. This would be very important in reassuring trade unionists. I hope the Minister will feel able to consider the amendment very seriously and adopt it.
Lord Mendelsohn
My Lords, I thank my noble friend Lady Donaghy and congratulate her on some excellent amendments, which naturally I strongly support. I also support the amendment in the names of the noble Lord, Lord Stoneham, and the noble Baroness, Lady Burt.
This group of amendments focuses on the practicalities of the proposed changes to the Certification Officer and their staff. They would further secure the impartiality of the Certification Officer in maintaining an approach by staff to investigations that is free from bias and undue influence. In order to give trade union members assurances over the security of any personal information supplied, it is vital that the power to require the production of documents remains solely that of the Certification Officer and his or her staff. That is what Amendment 101 seeks to achieve. Contracting out investigatory powers and the handling of sensitive information may not only jeopardise the independent standing of the Certification Officer but leave trade unions vulnerable to the misuse of their data.
That potential problem relates directly to the issues raised in the following amendments. There must be a requirement for a person investigating a breach of an obligation by a union to be a member of the staff of the Certification Officer, not simply “other persons” as the Bill currently states. Amendments 103 and 104 would add yet further safety measures for occasions when the Certification Officer appointed as an inspector someone who was not a member of his or her staff. The Certification Officer must have proper regard to the proportionality of making such an appointment, the cost of the appointment and, importantly, the impartiality of the person, which is naturally a matter of deep concern given the political nature of all the issues involved in the appointment.
There is nothing in the Bill to stop the Certification Officer hiring what is vaguely described as “other persons” to take part in an investigation. That leaves us without any safeguards against the hiring of a person who may have a particular political leaning or history of working against trade unions. Without appointees being directly employed by and accountable to the Certification Officer, how can the Government ensure that the investigations will be consistently impartial? This point is critical to the accountability and independence of the Certification Officer.
Reflecting the threat of malicious complaints, as mentioned in discussion on the previous group, standards must also be set to gauge the validity of any complaints. Not only should complaints be made by a union member but the Certification Officer must have reason to believe that there is adequate evidence of a breach of an obligation before they initiate an investigation. Again, this would protect everyone involved from wasting time on deliberately unfounded complaints.
In an effort genuinely to increase openness and transparency, the Certification Officer or the person investigating any breach of an obligation by a union should be required to produce an interim report, which would be sent to the union concerned. This allows for a truly open process and for communication from the Certification Officer to the union concerned, which ultimately would pave the way for a quicker and smoother resolution.
Lord Stoneham of Droxford
I shall speak also to Amendment 107. Both amendments stand in my name and in the names of my noble friends Lady Burt and Lord Mendelsohn. I do not want to detain the Committee for long on these amendments because, in many respects, we have already dealt with the issues in principle. This is obviously a further initiative to try to restrict the amount of intervention—in this case, by the Certification Officer.
I just want to remind the Committee that the original trade union Certification Officer was appointed in 1975. From memory—I was brought up on the Donovan report, so I think I am right in this—the intention was to try to eliminate disputes, particularly about union membership, within and between unions. Therefore, it was thought that there was a need for better records and the recording of membership and finances to reduce the scope for disputes.
I re-emphasise that the Certification Officer is there primarily to protect the members of individual unions, particularly when they are in some form of dispute or disagreement with their own union. Their complaints are absolutely key. I accept that an investigation initiated by the Certification Officer, particularly if it is a public servant with the experience of the current Certification Officer, is the least-worst incursion that we are seeing in this Bill. Certainly, it is much better than the third-party initiative, which I think is a charter for cranks and would lead to all sorts of muddle and unnecessary bureaucracy. I have already said that there is no evidence that there is pressure or a burden of complaints that need to be answered, particularly from third parties, let alone from union members themselves.
Given that the Government have now started to consult the Certification Officer, can we ask him whether he wants these powers to investigate himself? Does he think these powers are needed? Those are two questions the Minister has to ask in relation to these amendments. It is clear from the oral evidence the Certification Officer gave to the Select Committee that he sees problems with the complications that have now been caused. There are those who say that this is common for regulators, but there are now four distinct areas of requirement for the Certification Officer. He is going to be an initiator of inquiries, if he wants to be, in the form of a policeman; he is going to be an investigator; he is going to be an adjudicator; he is going to be an enforcer. There are quite a lot of complications there, given that this is a semi-legal process. I wonder whether the Government have really consulted the Certification Officer on what he thinks those problems are.
Finally, let us remind ourselves that the great tradition set by the Donovan report—and we have accepted that, as experience has gone on, that was ameliorated by further Acts—was that, wherever possible, where there are disputes within unions, whether a member organisation or voluntary organisation, the emphasis should be on voluntarily resolving them. Trying to set up a semi-legal process that becomes increasingly complicated and does not emphasise the voluntary nature of what you are seeking to do will make it more difficult and more expensive to resolve. That is precisely why, amazingly, a Conservative Government are causing the expenditure on this regulator to go up from £500,000 to £2 million—what an indictment.
Lord Mendelsohn
My Lords, I will speak very briefly as we have spoken to the principle of the amendment and the noble Lord, Lord Stoneham, made a very powerful case and asked some very important questions. I just want to address a couple of points on which I would be grateful if the Minister could give us more detail. If she is not in a position to do so tonight, perhaps she will write to me.
My questions are on the financial components of this. In the Certification Officer’s evidence, he said:
“Our provisional thinking on all this is to recruit some new members of staff and then to play it by ear and recruit as we go along”.
The increase that he talked about is his,
“provisional view, but we are warning our funders, ACAS, that we may ask for more money”.
Within the context of the impact assessment, additional inspectors will cost between £250,000 and £500,000 and will look at an increased number of investigations. The impact assessment also talks about a likely 10 additional enforcement decisions being issued against trade unions every five years. There is very little behind the assumption of how you get to the first cost or the second cost and how the two relate to each other. What are the anticipated number of inquiries and how many of those will go to determination or other sorts of things if we open this up to third parties? I would be very grateful if the Minister could provide more detail on that. As I said, if she is not able to do that now, I am more than happy to receive a letter.
My final point is to clarify the position and probe whether there is a way of ameliorating this. There are of course fears and concerns that the Certification Officer could be pressured into carrying out investigations in response to a request from employers, campaign groups or a variety of people. Will the Minister confirm that the failure to act on submissions from third parties could expose the Certification Officer to risks of judicial review? Are there any safeguards in the Bill to prevent the Certification Officer being pressured by malicious motives?
I am a great believer that legislation rarely changes the heart and is there to restrain the heartless. In the circumstances that there are heartless people who have ill intent against the trade unions—and I believe there are—how can the Certification Officer be protected from these sorts of vexatious complaints, the racking-up of costs and the problems associated with allowing judicial review to be a mechanism available to third parties on spurious claims? I would be grateful if the Minister could give us some sense of how that could be dealt with.
Baroness Donaghy
I have also lost the will to live. However, Amendment 109 intends to delete the following:
“Where an enforcement order has been made, a person who is a member of the union and was a member at the time it was made is entitled to enforce obedience to the order as if the order had been made on an application by that person”.
Amendments 110 to 117 are technical in nature and again are consistent with my theory that the role of the Certification Officer should remain simple and that the investigatory powers should be confined to that officer, not spread far and wide. The amendments are all entirely consistent with my view that the Government are going down the wrong track in trying to change this position, which the noble Lord, Lord Stoneham—I might call him my noble friend in view of our common trade union background—has commented on.
It is important to remember that the post originated as a protection for the union member against the union structure, if you like. I know that add-ons have been made over the years, but the role remains essentially the same. Because of its limitations and the way the Certification Officer has carried out his role, it has become a trusted position. The Government have accepted that they are trying to change the nature of the role, saying that it is about modernisation. I think that we shall just have to agree to disagree. We need to take into consideration that any attempt to change the nature of the role by reference to “imperfect relationships” between unions and employers seems to add a meaning that I had not been aware of, which is why I was so worried about the impact assessment. These are probing and technical amendments, but they are consistent with all that we have been saying. I beg to move.
Lord Mendelsohn
I want to raise a couple of quick questions which I hope that the Minister will be able to respond to. I am speaking in support of the amendments and to seek clarity on some of the questions which have been raised by my noble friend Lady Donaghy in her amendments. We have debated provisions that place in our view an unnecessary burden and level of regulation on trade unions. Clause 6 places an obligation on unions to report to the Certification Officer in their annual return the details of any industrial action taken, while Clause 11 places an even heftier duty on unions to include details of political expenditure exceeding £2,000 in their annual returns.
Clause 16 gives the Certification Officer quite a bite to ensure that unions abide by these obligations. The Certification Officer will now be able to declare an “enforcement order” against any union which does not follow these measures. Noble Lords will recall how earlier in Committee we debated the concerns expressed by smaller unions that would not have the resources to comply adequately with such regulation. Will the Minister consider any allowances or safeguards where small unions genuinely do not have the manpower to abide by these provisions?
This clause further enhances the role of the Certification Officer by giving the office the same consideration that a court would be given. New subsection (12) indicates that:
“An enforcement order made by the Certification Officer … may be enforced by the Officer in the same way as an order of the court”.
This seems a little extreme and I would be grateful for any examples the Minister could provide on similar bodies which have the powers of the court.
I should like to make a brief comment in relation to Amendment 109, which would remove new subsection (13). The central argument for doing so is because it just does not make sense. I would be grateful if the Minister could explain it to me.
Baroness Neville-Rolfe
My Lords, I thank the noble Baroness, Lady Donaghy, for her commendable honesty. I will seek to provide some reassurance on this, which is essentially a technical discussion. I think that there is a reasonable explanation; let us see how it goes.
In the current legislation a union member—so it is a member—can apply to the court to ensure that a union complies with an order of the Certification Officer. That is a long-standing provision of the current legislation, which we heard about. However, to reflect the Certification Officer’s investigation powers we thought it would be helpful when drafting the legislation to remove any doubt that his own orders may also be enforced, as an order of the court, by the Certification Officer. In doing so, the drafting of the Bill reiterates the existing rights of the applicant member and other members mentioned in relevant sections of the current legislation. The words in Clause 17 that the noble Baroness seeks to amend simply refer to those existing provisions. I do not have any examples, but I will see whether we can find one. The main example is that that is existing practice, but I will look at other regulators and add it to my letter.
I am sure that noble Lords would agree that, if the Certification Officer had found that a union was not compliant with its obligations and it did not rectify the situation, it must be right that a union member should continue to be able to take action to protect their interests.
I hope that that provides some reassurance and that the noble Baroness will feel able to withdraw the amendment.
Baroness Neville-Rolfe
My Lords, my understanding is that the orders of Certification Officers are already enforceable as an order of the court under the 1992 Act, so we are just continuing that position.
Lord Mendelsohn
To clarify, the Bill gives over the powers of the Certification Officer. His order can be enforced without going to court.
Baroness Neville-Rolfe
I do not think that that is right, but perhaps I can write and clarify in the follow-up if I do not receive advice quickly.
On small unions, details of the application of financial penalties, including the maximum level of penalties available to the Certification Officer, will be set out in regulations. Of course, they will be subject to the affirmative resolution procedure, as we discussed. In setting maximum amounts in the regulations it will be possible to take into account the type of breach and the size of the union.
I will write to confirm that the answer to the noble Lord’s point is no and that it requires an application to the court.
Lord Mendelsohn
Lord Mendelsohn
My Lords, I think that we have gained a bit of momentum and I hope not to interrupt it.
We move on to a group of amendments which examines what happens to a union when it is unable to comply with the Certification Officer’s enforcement order. Clause 17 of the Bill provides the Certification Officer with a new power to impose substantial financial penalties on unions. Schedule 3 states that the maximum and minimum penalty amounts can be set in regulations but they cannot be less than £200 and cannot exceed £20,000.
The Secretary of State is given a power to issue regulations setting different amounts in relation to different enforcement orders and to reference penalties by whether the person in default is an individual or an organisation and by the number of members that a trade union has. We would be very grateful if the Minister could provide us with the Government’s thinking on those areas and how they are looking at setting those fines and how they are likely to operate. Given the momentum we have now achieved, it may be better if that information were provided in writing rather than from the Dispatch Box. However, if the Minister already has the relevant details, they would be gratefully received.
I return to an important issue. At present, the Certification Officer cannot impose financial penalties. I know that this is a repetitive line of questioning but I will ask the Minister again: what evidence has been provided as the basis for the Government to introduce these measures? From reading the Certification Officer’s evidence at the Select Committee and his annual reports, there was no sign of the need for a serious measure such as financial penalties for him to be able to exercise his powers effectively. The Government’s impact assessment predicts that if the Bill comes into effect, the Certification Officer will on average issue 50 declarations and enforcement notices during every five-year period. This is an increase of 10 declarations every five years. On each occasion, the Certification Officer is expected to impose a financial penalty, and a figure has been identified in relation to income from fines. As a result, it is anticipated that the Exchequer will benefit from fine revenue of £275,000 every five years. I would be very grateful to the Minister to be told how the Government have arrived at that figure. I am reminded that when you look at your credit card statement and it says that you have a credit card limit, it is a limit, not a target. An assumption that there is a £275,000 benefit to the Exchequer starts to create a target or underlines a series of assumptions which I think we should know more about.
There is no evidence of union non-compliance with the Certification Officer’s orders or any evidence of the Certification Officer raising concerns with government around the current enforcement regime. Therefore, the idea that there will be fines seems to underline a different series of assumptions or a different evidence base. I would be grateful if the Minister would indicate whether that is the case as regards either of those scenarios. I beg to move.
Lord Stoneham of Droxford
I will be brief because, frankly, discussing this issue will almost cost more—given all the noble Lords around the Chamber and all the people supporting us with the discussion going on until late at night—than this provision will raise in a year. The relevant figure is about £55,000. The impact assessment refers to five-year periods. I wonder why that is the case. The figures are so low. I could not find any evidence of enforcements in last year’s report, but, apparently, we have had eight enforcements per year on average. I am sure that the political advisers, the Minister, or whoever saw the impact assessment, thought that they had better talk in five-year periods because it makes the figure—40—sound bigger. If we put in these new powers, we will spend another £1.5 million and we will get two more enforcement orders a year. Goodness me, what is this? It is ridiculous. The Government are clearly contriving an issue out of nothing.
That goes back to my earlier point. The impact assessment says there is scope to increase the powers, but actually the Government have provided no evidence that it is necessary. The great sadness is that, as everyone knows, once you start having fines, interests become entrenched. Pride is at stake—nobody likes to be fined—so it becomes a legal process, it becomes drawn out and the poor old Certification Officer, who at the moment is doing a very good job trying to reach voluntary agreements, finds it more difficult because the parties become more intractable. And for what? For eight or 10 enforcement orders a year—goodness me!
Baroness Neville-Rolfe
I do not know the answer this evening. I am not sure I am going to give way on this point. We are setting up a modern regulator and a modern regulator needs appropriate penalties. We can argue about the exact detail of the penalties and I am going to come on to say something of a listening kind.
The range of the penalties that we propose mirrors that available to bodies that I see some parallel with, such as the Electoral Commission, which has a maximum of £20,000 in relation to the civil penalties that it can impose; I think it does criminal penalties as well. The national minimum wage regime also provides for penalties of up to £20,000 per worker. Our general approach is that a strong civil sanctions regime is an effective way of ensuring rapid compliance. That is why we do not think that the amendment, which seeks to reduce the fine to £5,000, would be sufficient.
We want to get this right. As the noble Lord, Lord Dykes, said, we are trying to listen during Committee. Obviously, we will consider and reflect on the debate in the House before bringing forward further details, particularly of the application of these penalties and how they would work. I ask the noble Lord to withdraw the amendment.
Lord Mendelsohn
I thank the Minister for that reply. I think the noble Lord, Lord Stoneham, has really put his finger on it. The issue here, which we think is of considerable concern, is that there is no evidence that actions are not complied with or such orders are not dealt with adequately. It is certainly true to say that the Government are extending this significantly and placing potentially terrible burdens on smaller organisations, which may have tremendous problems with them.
As we move to Report, the Government have to make a better case than they have made thus far. They say that it is important to restore public confidence. I think this is setting people up for a fall and that is not how you instil public confidence. To me, it is more like the action of a bully and I regret it. I hope the Government come back with a much better justification.
Baroness Neville-Rolfe
I have already said in a previous discussion that we very much understand the point about small unions. I reiterate that. In the interests of brevity, I have not repeated it under this heading. We are looking to get the detail of this right and look forward to further discussions on the subject.
Lord Mendelsohn
My Lords, Clause 18 gives the Secretary of State power to make affirmative regulations to provide for trade unions and employers’ associations to pay a levy to the Certification Officer. The amendments in this group attempt to remove any ambiguity over how a levy would be imposed on the trade unions and limit vast increases in the cost of the Certification Officer. These are probing amendments to try to establish where we are. I must say that the powerful speech by the noble Lord, Lord Oates, was significant, and I share his sentiments.
The impact assessment on the levy states that membership size and income will be taken into account, without giving any detail of how it will be calculated and how the costs will be shared between unions. As matters stand, there is no indication as to how the levy might be applied in practice: whether larger unions would have to pay more than small unions, how it would work, what the impact would be on union finances or how the future of the Certification Officer’s resources is established. All those areas are far too ambiguous.
The Bill also fails to require either the Government or the Certification Officer to consult stakeholders before determining the level of the levy. By contrast, in an area of which I am aware, the Financial Conduct Authority’s board is under a statutory duty to consult key stakeholders on fees policy and rates. Indeed, it carries out two consultations: one on policy changes and one relating to fee rates. The amendments simply ask the Certification Officer to carry out the same level of consultation with trade unions and employers’ associations before determining any levy.
I raise this matter because there has to be some operating mechanism and some sense of how it will operate. There must be a view on what should be the limits in any year of the Certification Officer’s growth and how they will be applied. If circumstances require additional staff, does that have to conform to pre-agreed boundaries? How are we to ensure that this onerous system remains logical and can be applied in any manner that can be described as fair? The Bill must give adequate protection to trade unions that the costs will not continue to spiral in the same way as they tend to in a variety of other places.
The amendments are necessary to inform trade unions how any level will be calculated and at what cost. Without a guarantee that stakeholders will be consulted on the setting of the levy or limit to future costs, the trade unions will be very much in the dark over how much the Certification Officer will cost initially and in future. What is being presented to the trade unions is an endless bill and the potential for the Certification Officer to run up an expensive tab. This is not a deal which you or I would enter into willingly, and is one which all trade unions and employers’ associations should be protected against, not least because it is their members who bear the brunt of it.
I am trying to clarify the position. The Minister is held in very high regard in the House, and rightly so. Frequently in this House, we have exchanges where we can disagree on a variety of matters either on the application—how something will work—or the foundation or principles behind it. I am not of a trade union background. I am a businessman, I have never been a member of a trade union, but I sit on the Opposition Benches, so it is entirely logical that someone might say: “You are likely to say that, are you not?”. During Second Reading and in Committee on the Bill, we have heard contributions which I hope have given the Government a sense that it is time to pause and reflect very carefully on what has been said.
The noble Lord, Lord Dykes, made a very interesting intervention. There is a certain mood attached to this Bill. The Bill is not worthy of where we are, and I am more than aware that the Minister on previous occasions has been very flexible and thoughtful in considering contributions from this House. I am also aware that there are difficulties in trying to convince those in another place that there is any reason, rationale or desire to make any changes, and that just as a bit of political yah boo sucks they continue in that fashion. I dearly hope that the Minister can use her good offices to convince others. Frankly, over the entirety of this period we have seen the flaws in this Bill and we know that it does nothing for trade unions, employers, our economy or our public services. It also does very little for our politics, and I hope that there is a chance that at the end of this Committee stage the Minister will give us some comfort that we might see some changes on Report, and that it will not be a continuation of an appalling form of politics that we should eschew.
Baroness Neville-Rolfe
My Lords, I thank all noble Lords who have been engaged in this very long debate today. On the final point that the noble Lord made, clearly, this Bill brings together a number of provisions that were promised in our manifesto, on which we were elected last year. There are important changes here but, as I said at Second Reading, and as I have reiterated over these four days in Committee, we are listening. We may be able to make some changes—this is very much a listening part of the process.
This clause provides a regulation-making power to enable the Certification Officer to charge a levy to recover the cost of his or her expenses. It is only fair that the cost of the regulatory functions provided by the Certification Officer fall on those who are regulated rather than on the taxpayer. We are, of course, applying this reform to employers’ associations as well as trade unions.