Health and Social Care Bill

Lord Newton of Braintree Excerpts

Tuesday 25th October 2011 Lords Chamber

[Lord Phillips of Sudbury]

My Lords, I shall not detain you long. I cannot resist—given that the noble Lord, Lord Owen, was in reminiscing mood—recollecting that my Welsh father was personally appointed by Aneurin Bevan to be responsible for the inauguration of the health service in what was then the county of West Suffolk. My infancy was taken up with traipsing around hospitals and surgeries in his wake. I am as totally committed to the National Health Service as any man or woman on earth. Indeed, one of my daughters was admitted last night as an emergency patient to an NHS hospital.

Perhaps I may echo the words of the noble and learned Lord, Lord Mackay of Clashfern, because I think that he spoke from great experience and with great wisdom. I am sorry that that flies in the face of what the noble Baroness, Lady Thornton, said, in what was one of the most radical charm offensives towards these Benches in the history of charm offensives. However, as others have said, the notion of incorporating resolutions of party political conferences into legislation is a short road to legislative anarchy. I want to make two points in relation to that.

First, I absolutely concede that an upfront statement of principles makes legislation more comprehensible and more friendly to the layperson. I do not deny that for a second, and that very much draws me to such a statement. But then one comes to the hard, unaccommodating realities of construing statutes. We already have here a Bill of 445 pages, with at least that number of pages to come in secondary legislation, with—as I counted the other night—DHS documentation in support of the Bill in excess of 1,000 pages. I put it to the noble Baroness that principles, however well drafted, may give even more room for manoeuvre and obfuscation to my profession. There is room enough already in this Bill.

If noble Lords do not know what I am talking about, I offer an example. There is no reference in the amendment as drafted to an absolutely fundamental principle of this Bill, which is the subject of an amendment in the name of the noble Baroness, Lady Finlay, the noble Lord, Lord Kakkar, and myself—namely equality of clinical treatment and care for NHS patients with private patients. That is but one example of an omission in the present statement of principles. I am sure that many Lords in other parts of the House could say, “What about this?” or “What about that?”. We could argue until the cows come home. All the while, as the noble and learned Lord, Lord Mackay of Clashfern, reminded us, we have that historic, catholic and satisfactory statement in the 1946 Act of what it is all about. Therefore, I add my voice, with a degree of reluctance, to the voices of those who feel that the amendment, although good in intention, might not achieve its purpose but sow inadvertent mischief.

[Lord Newton of Braintree]

My Lords, I begin a very brief set of remarks by apologising to the House, and especially to my noble friend Lady Williams and to the noble Lord, Lord Hennessy, for not having been here at the beginning of the debate. The reason is perhaps apposite and might help to calm down the noble Lord, Lord Peston; I was at an NHS clinic in Braintree at lunchtime.

On the basis of this debate and looking at the amendment, I am with my noble friend Lord Mawhinney and a number of other noble Lords who have no objection to a preamble or general statement of principle. I will come back to that in a minute. However, if we need one, this amendment is not it, as the noble Lord, Lord Bichard, said. There is a case for the Government looking at a possible preamble or broad statement of principle, partly because, in my judgment at least, the views that the noble Lords, Lord Peston and Lord Owen, expressed—which would lead me, if I believed that they were true, to refuse to support the Bill—have raised fears and concerns among a significant number of members of the public. If we can reassure them by a preamble or statement of principle at a proper time, we should do it.

My noble and learned friend Lord Mackay of Clashfern did us a service by going back to the founding statement in the 1946 Act. I say to the Labour Front Bench that it may need a bit of tweaking—I have not studied it in the way that my noble and learned friend has—but going back to the statement of principles on which the NHS was founded would give people that reassurance. For me as a Conservative, and no doubt for the Liberal Democrats as well, it would do a real service by assuring people that we are not about destroying the NHS but about making it better and more fully equipped to fulfil its initial objectives. I hope that my noble friend will look at what my noble and learned friend suggested.

[Lord Alderdice]

My Lords, I agree considerably with the suggestion of the noble Baroness, Lady Thornton, that some of us might have a sense of déjà vu about the setting down of a list of principles pre-Clause 1. She is right that it is what opposition parties tend to do—and the response, as the noble Baroness, Lady Morgan, pointed out, is that Governments tend to resist them. Her Government were no different from how I suspect the Minister will be in this respect. However, I hope that when Liberal Democrats and Conservatives in the past put down such amendments, they were a little more careful about the wording.

As a number of noble Lords who are susceptible to the notion of a statement of principles pointed out, the statements before us are not very well put. The first states that the health service,

“must have regard to the principles and values outlined in the NHS Constitution”.

I have no doubt that if this had come forward as a government proposal rather than an opposition amendment, the Opposition’s place would have been to say, “Only having regard to the principles and values? What about all the other aspects of the NHS constitution? Will they not be set aside now that we have a subsequent piece of legislation?”. Legally, that would be a perfectly legitimate point. The second one identifies a number of principles—quality, equity, integration and accountability —and then speaks of the market, which is not a principle at all. It is a mechanism, as my noble friend Lord Ribeiro rightly said. Indeed, the noble Baroness then pointed out that actually a little care was lacking in the setting down of the original words.

--- Later in debate ---

[Lord Warner]

My Lords, I am a bit confused as to whether we are making speeches or asking questions of the noble and learned Lord, Lord Mackay, who seems to have volunteered to conduct seminars for us on many of these issues. In making some points I shall, in a way, be trying to be helpful to the noble and learned Lord. In a sense, the criticism he is receiving is unfair because his amendments bring the legislation up to date in terms of provision, which has been a fiction for many years. However, his proposal has to be read in conjunction with all the other provisions in the Bill, which continue to puzzle me. The Government have sworn that they want to be extremely hands-off, and they have their beautifully drafted Clause 4, which I think has incurred the wrath of the noble Baroness, Lady Williams, and others. Nevertheless, the Bill as a whole gives the Secretary of State quite a lot of powers to intervene, and I shall go through just a few of them.

Clause 12 confers a power to control services commissioned by the Commissioning Board or clinical commissioning groups; Clause 13, the ability to give direction on secure psychiatric services; Clause 14, the power to make arrangements for the supply of blood and human tissue; and Clause 16, regulations to require clinical commissioning groups to exercise EU health functions. Under Clause 17—even better—the Secretary of State can make regulations that impose standing rules on the Commissioning Board and clinical commissioning groups to arrange for specified treatments and a raft of other things. Clause 20 is the mandation clause, where the Secretary of State can mandate the board before the start of each financial year to specify objectives and the requirements for achieving those objections.

That set of measures looks very un-hands-offish to simple souls such as me. I think that we are getting ourselves into a bit of a state about this, because the Secretary of State seems to have very extensive powers. I admit that some of the public discourse may have been a bit confused by the explanation that the Government’s candidate for the chairmanship of the NHS Commissioning Board gave in his interview. He seemed to have a very hands-off picture of what the Secretary of State should do, and I suspect that he may not have read the Bill quite as carefully as your Lordships will have done. We have to look at the amendment of the noble and learned Lord, Lord Mackay, in the context of making the legislation honest but with the Secretary of State retaining huge powers in the Bill to intervene and direct operations.

[Lord Newton of Braintree]

My Lords, I am once again tempted, in this case by the noble Lord, Lord Warner, with whose views I almost entirely agree. Indeed, I find myself on an alarming number of occasions having quite a lot of fellow feeling with him. I will return to one or two of those points briefly. Being a singularly modest character, these debates are beginning to induce in me a feeling of considerable intellectual inadequacy—which I suspect is not the case with the noble Lord. I constantly feel that I am in the presence of angels dancing on the heads of pins. I hear the noble Baroness, Lady Jay—I hope she will not mind my saying this—saying, “We might as well retain this, because it has always been there”, even though we know it has never been the reality. At that point, we stop being angels dancing on the heads of pins, and we start dancing round a totem pole. On the whole, if we are going to dance round a totem pole, I would like a totem pole that reflects what we want to happen, not what was written into a Bill 60 years ago. The noble Baroness thinks I am being unfair.

[Baroness Jay of Paddington]

I certainly do not think that the noble Lord is being unfair. I suggest to the noble Lord, Lord Newton, that he reflects on what the noble and learned Lord, Lord Mackay of Clashfern, said on Amendment 1, which was precisely to invoke the Act of 60 years ago, and to pray it in aid, as reflecting what could be a useful addition to the principles of this Bill. That is precisely what I am seeking to address.

[Lord Newton of Braintree]

I strongly supported and continue to support that, which is very reflective in ensuring that we do rest on the original foundations. I never thought I would be a natural Bevanite, but it appears that I have become one, together with a number of others.

That was not quite the point—we were then talking about a preamble. We are now talking about a slightly different provision. I would be entirely happy to see the preamble of the 1946 Act incorporated into this, with—as I said in my speech earlier—perhaps a little tweaking. However, we are now talking about the best way of ensuring and establishing the responsibilities, in the real world, of the Secretary of State. I have another sense of unreality in all of this, born of many years in the Commons. The idea that, whatever this Bill says and however precisely it is worded, the British political system—the House of Commons in particular—would allow the Secretary of State to dispense £120 billion per year of public money without being answerable and accountable to Parliament, is inherently ludicrous. The system would not allow it to happen. I am all in favour of writing that into the Bill if we can find appropriate terms, but in reality that will be the case whatever we have in this Bill.

I agree—and not for the first time—with everything my noble friend Lady Williams said about the importance of making this clear beyond a peradventure. I am quite happy with that.

[Baroness Thornton]

My Lords, I hesitate to intervene, but the problem we face is that this Bill does precisely what the noble Lord is saying he does not want to happen, which is that the Secretary of State will be properly accountable for £120 billion of taxpayers’ money. The Bill puts into statute the ability for the Secretary of State to be challenged, when and if he faces those issues. That is the problem we have.

[Lord Newton of Braintree]

I hope that noble Lords will forgive me for not sitting down, but it may be obvious to the House that one of my more strenuous activities is moving from the sedentary position to a standing one. I prefer not to do it unnecessarily frequently.

I do not agree with that, but I have also made it clear that I have no objection to this being made a little clearer than it is thought to be in the drafting, which is what the noble Baroness, Lady Williams, is looking for. If I might just go on, I will not do so at great length. The noble Baroness was also very sensible and right to acknowledge that the way forward suggested by my noble and learned friend Lord Mackay was better. At the moment, on balance, it probably is. I am agnostic on that; I am naturally supportive of my noble and learned friend, but these are different ways of achieving an objective that we all share.

I will not say much more except for one point on the autonomy clause and issues that have more recently been raised by the noble Lord, Lord Warner. I have some sympathy with my noble friend Lady Williams on the autonomy clause, which we have yet to get to. I hope the noble Lord, Lord Davies of Stamford, was listening to what the noble Lord, Lord Warner, said: a lot of people who have commented on the apparent or alleged withdrawal of Secretary of State powers in this Bill have not actually read what is in the Bill.

I will give one example. Under the arrangements made by the previous Government for Monitor to be the controller and regulator of foundation trusts, I think I am right in saying that the Secretary of State had no power to intervene. In this Bill, he does. If Monitor fails to do the right things, the Secretary of State can intervene. That was not the case before.

One thing that I was very iffy about—I do not know how Hansard will deal with “iffy”; perhaps I should say “uncertain”—in the previous Government’s record was their setting up of foundation trusts. The rhetoric was that the Secretary of State was abandoning responsibility to foundation trusts and Monitor without any power to control what happened. That situation was introduced by the Labour Government and is corrected by the Bill. We have heard a lot of distortion about what the Bill is intended to do and what it actually does. My concern is to reassure the public about what in my view are unfounded fears. The noble Lord, Lord Warner, has materially helped us in that.

[Lord Davies of Stamford]

I listened with great attention to the noble Lord and took on board what he said. Of course, the position of Monitor is not entirely comparable because under the Bill it has vastly more powers.

[Lord Newton of Braintree]

I am sorry, I was distracted.

[Lord Davies of Stamford]

Monitor under the Bill will have vastly more powers than it had. As a result, the situation is not entirely comparable. That is my point.

[Lord Newton of Braintree]

Monitor has extended responsibilities—and, importantly, a much clearer remit to be concerned with the quality of patient services—beyond what it had when its overwhelming focus was on financial matters. I regard that as an improvement. The Secretary of State under the Bill has more powers over Monitor than it had under the original proposals introduced and passed by the Labour Government. I see that the noble Lord, Lord Warner, is nodding his head.

This is a difficult and complex area. We could argue for ever about the best way to deal with it. I say to my noble friend on the Front Bench that I hope that we can find a way forward. I also hope that many noble Lords will recognise that some things said about the Bill are simply not true.

[Baroness Hollins]

My Lords, I seek clarification. I am very sympathetic to the amendment tabled by the noble Baroness, Lady Williams. To remove a key word without good reason causes anxiety and I am not convinced by the reason given for removing it. Perhaps I could ask the noble and learned Lord, Lord Mackay, to clarify whether his amendment would ensure that the obligations required as a result of the Coughlan case would still be protected.

--- Later in debate ---

[Lord Owen]

When we look at what has been said, we will have a better idea. As the Bill unfolds in all its complexity, we are all part of the education process. We saw that in the earlier debate about education. It is not satisfactory for Parliament to rest powers against the wording of the legislation; that is why we worry about words. Words matter here; we cannot get away from that. That is why I come back to the provisions in the admitted interventions—“failure”, “emergency”—which are extreme words, and are deliberately designed to be. We have to look at that.

We will not come to a view on the Secretary of State’s powers until we have finished Committee, looked at the whole Bill and have a feeling for what is to be changed by the Government. We will then come back to it. Personally, I hope that the Select Committee on the Constitution itself comes back to have a look at this. The committee has some very distinguished members. I would like to reserve judgment. The noble and learned Lord, Lord Mackay, who was one of our most distinguished Lord Chancellors, has made a very valuable contribution. Some of his explanations may even be of use in future law courts. I certainly stand by the amendment produced by the noble Baroness, Lady Williams, because it is tried and trusted, but I have made it clear that I would not object to wording put into this Bill at an appropriate stage which states that the Secretary of State is not micromanaging the National Health Service. Unfortunately, there is a public perception that comes to the Secretary of State for every damn thing under—I think I have made myself clear. We do not want that to happen and we know that it should not happen. We mouth the words of a decentralised health service without being willing to admit that there are limits to what people can be held accountable for. However, I do not think that failure and emergency are the parameters. They have to be lowered if we are going to make sense of this.

[Lord Newton of Braintree]

My Lords, before the noble Lord sits down, to use the classic formula, perhaps I may take the opportunity to say that in a series of debates in which he and I have not always seen eye to eye, I agree with pretty much every word he has just said. In particular, I do not think that we should return to this until we have been through the rest of the Bill and seen where we are on things such as the powers of the Secretary of State, the wording of those powers and the like. The noble Lord has made a very sensible point by saying that we can then form a better judgment about what is required in this area.

[Lord Mawhinney]

My Lords, I want to associate my initial remarks entirely with what my noble friend Lord Newton has just said. The noble Lord, Lord Owen, has given the Committee good advice. I have sat through the whole of today’s debate, as have most of us, and it has been interesting to note how much we have learnt about this Bill simply by talking to and listening to each other. I share the view of the noble Lord, Lord Owen, that the learning process has only just begun and is not nearly complete, so it would be foolish to rush to judgments.

I would say to my noble and learned friend Lord Mackay that he knows there is no one I hold in higher regard than him. The formulation in his amendment is extremely helpful because it encapsulates the legal realities. So if I had to judge on the basis of the legal realities, I think I would favour my noble and learned friend’s amendment.

On the other hand, I should say to the noble Baroness, Lady Williams, that the strength of her amendment lies in the fact that it has 60 to 70 years of continuity. If we are looking for the constitutionally more helpful amendment, it may be that of the noble Baroness. I say that also conscious of the fact that out there, as we keep telling each other, there is a degree of nervousness about this Bill. Some of it is well founded and some of it is scaremongering, a word I have used before. But there is a sense of unease. The continuity of 70 years of using the same language might help to address the issue. That is why I say that constitutionally I lean towards the noble Baroness, Lady Williams, while legally I lean towards my noble and learned friend, and I do not want to make a choice at the moment.

Maybe it is partially because the noble Lord, Lord Newton, and I spent so many years in the other place but, as he said, I too believe that the reality is that out there £128 billion is really rather a lot of money. The idea that when somebody threatens to close the Peterborough Hospital my former constituents are going to settle for the chairman of a quango, no matter how illustrious, experienced or wonderful he is—I do not know the gentleman but I am sure that he is all of those and a whole lot more—is just not in the real world. I tell you that as somebody who can still fairly clearly remember what it was like to be a Member of Parliament. Indeed, I can remember fairly clearly what it was like to be the Health Minister and it is still not in the real world.

The noble Lord, Lord Warner—I promise not to keep doing this—was very helpful to this Committee because he pointed out the Secretary of State’s powers. Unusually, I am not sure my noble friend Lord Newton was quite right when he used Monitor as an example. He was right in the technical sense that the previous legislation set up Monitor apparently free. As my noble friend said that I thought about all the newspaper stories I have read recently about how PFI is falling apart and the mounting debt Monitor is having to deal with because the PFI arrangements for foundation trust hospitals were simply not in the real world. The idea that the Secretary of State for Health is not finding some way to intervene with Monitor—he would have to if Monitor wants more money to offset that debt—shows that the reality of what happens on the ground is extremely important.

I say to my noble friend the Minister that there is one other aspect of this on which, as a simple Belfast boy, I am confused. The NHS Commissioning Board has legal status. As the noble Lord, Lord Warner, reminded us, the Secretary of State gives it a mandate and then it has a legal status. Does that mean that the Secretary of State’s lawyers have to relate to the NHS Commissioning Board’s lawyers if the Secretary of State wants to have some involvement during the course of the year—even if it is only in the context that the noble Lord, Lord Owen, does not like of emergency or failure? We need to have a much clearer grasp of the practical realities of the consequences of this Bill. Whatever the intellectual framework and the ideas that coherently come together to provide esoteric new arrangements, this Bill has to work in the real world. This Committee needs to be encouraged by my noble friend to believe that the Secretary of State is going to be at the heart of making this Bill work in practice.