Northern Ireland Executive: Update

Debate between Lord Murphy of Torfaen and Baroness Suttie

Thursday 6th September 2018 Lords Chamber

[Lord Murphy of Torfaen (Lab)]

My Lords, obviously we welcome the Statement by the Minister indicating that there is going to be a fresh attempt to restore devolution in Northern Ireland. I remind the House that those in Northern Ireland who resist being part of a devolved Executive and Assembly go against the fundamental principles of the Good Friday agreement. The people of Northern Ireland voted in favour of the establishment of these institutions, as indeed did the people of the Republic, so it is very important that they are set up, as well as for many other reasons.

I accept the point the Minister made about the salaries of MLAs. It is not easy to do because we want to ensure that there is a class of politicians in Northern Ireland that can continue governing when devolution returns. He is responding to the mood of the House and of the people of Northern Ireland. I agree too that elections at this stage would be pointless because presumably, they would not change the electoral arithmetic an awful lot. What is needed is an impetus to ensure that the parties in Northern Ireland want to set up the institutions.

A day or two ago I mentioned some of the ideas that the Minister could take up. One is that the talks—which should be intensive, formal, with a timetable and a deadline and which might even go somewhere outside Northern Ireland—ought to involve all the parties, not just two. Of course, the DUP and Sinn Féin are the most important because of the electoral arithmetic but other parties should be properly involved in these talks.

The Minister said that external facilitation means somebody coming in from outside and chairing the talks, like George Mitchell or Richard Haass—at least, I think that was what he said. This is very important because it gives people confidence and it is a fresh approach. The two Prime Ministers also ought to be involved in intensive negotiations at a certain stage, using the gravity of their offices to ensure that there is an arrangement for bringing back the institutions.

Without the institutions, this will drift into direct rule. A descent into direct rule is in nobody’s interests, least of all the people of Northern Ireland. I wish the Government well in their endeavours. The Opposition will do anything they can to assist them.

[Baroness Suttie (LD)]

My Lords, I too thank the Minister for repeating the Statement in this House this afternoon. As he knows, we have pressed him on many occasions to see more action from the Government as a matter of urgency to restore the talks process. With this in mind, will he and the Secretary of State formally thank Naomi Long, the leader of the Alliance Party, for bringing together the five main parties for informal talks on Monday? This is the first time that all the parties have engaged in round table talks in the last six months. Naomi Long should be congratulated on this initiative.

As the noble Lord, Lord Murphy, said, the Statement makes reference to,

“when and how external facilitation could play a constructive role in the next round of talks”.

Given the length of time that Northern Ireland has been without a Government, it is clear that the political parties would benefit from outside thinking and a fresh approach. So, can the Minister say when the Government plan to appoint a mediator to manage a fresh talks process? Have the Government given any consideration to other creative solutions to get the talks going again, such as legislating here on issues such as the Irish language and equal marriage? This would relieve some of the pressure on the parties and allow a different starting point for the talks.

Will the Government also consider reconstituting the Assembly department scrutiny committees in parallel to a talks process? Assembly committees could undertake the functions of scrutinising budgets and providing political advice and guidance on key policy decisions such as Brexit. In this critical phase of the Brexit negotiations, does the Minister agree that it is essential to introduce some kind of formalised mechanisms to consult and take into consideration the views of all political parties in Northern Ireland—not just those of the DUP?

We are pleased to see that the Government intend to legislate to allow public appointments to be made. The clearest need is for the Policing Board to be re-established, but there are other bodies for which appointments are needed to enable vital work to continue. We also welcome the Government’s decision to take forward Trevor Reaney’s proposals on MLAs’ salaries. We are particularly pleased to see that staff will not be included in this. We do not believe that the current stalemate is in any way the fault of the hard-working constituency and Assembly staff. We are also pleased that there will be further clarity for civil servants in the future.

We on these Benches continue to believe that the best solution for Northern Ireland is devolved government and a well-functioning devolved Assembly. We sincerely hope that there will be significant progress in the very near future.

European Union (Withdrawal) Bill

Debate between Lord Murphy of Torfaen and Baroness Suttie

Wednesday 14th March 2018 Lords Chamber

[Baroness Suttie (LD)]

My Lords, it is always a pleasure to listen to the wisdom and experience of the noble and right reverend Lord, Lord Eames. He helps put all this back into perspective for us. I shall speak to Amendments 215, 198 and 187A, to which I have added my name. All three tackle the issue of avoiding a hard border and of upholding the progress made in the last 20 years since the Good Friday Belfast agreement.

Whereas there is virtually universal consensus about those aims, as the debate this evening has shown, there is still scarily little consensus about how they can be achieved in reality, especially given the timescale we are now talking about. Various options are being floated for the Irish border issue, but every one of them is considered utterly unacceptable to at least one section of society on the island of Ireland. This has all been further complicated by the confidence and supply arrangement that the Government have found themselves in since last summer, and the hard-line position on Brexit taken by the DUP.

In the absence of a credible policy from the Government and the current policy vacuum, various myths and assumptions have started to take hold. The first and most popular myth is, as my noble friend Lady Doocey has so clearly spelled out, that this problem can somehow magically be solved through “technological solutions”. The proponents of this myth have somewhat ironically given enormous credence to a paper written by one researcher for the Constitutional Affairs Committee in the European Parliament. As my noble friend said, and as the disclaimer in the document makes clear, that paper has no official status. People have perhaps been so keen to promote it because it is more than the Government themselves have been able to produce.

But even if such technological solutions were indeed feasible, as the noble Lord, Lord Browne, said, it is highly unlikely that they could be fully implemented within the next decade, never mind by next March. We just need to look at the track record across Whitehall to know how long it takes to introduce new technological systems, and how often there are severe technical and teething problems. On giving evidence to our EU Committee, a senior Swiss customs official acknowledged that on the 120 border crossings between Switzerland and the EU, even with technology some hardware has to be installed, with CCTV cameras, number plate recognition, drone technology and so on. Any such hardware could be very vulnerable to vandalism, so people on the ground would be required to protect it. It is not hard to see how this could quickly be ratcheted up to become a physical border. The chief constable of the PSNI, George Hamilton, has expressed publicly his concerns and warned that border posts and security installations created as a result of a hard Brexit would be seen as fair game for attack by violent dissident republicans.

The second dangerous assumption is that because the Irish have the most to lose economically as a result of Brexit, they will have to sort out the problem and fix it in Brussels. There are even those who say that the inevitable consequence is that Ireland too will have to leave the European Union. But Ireland is a sovereign state and the Irish people overwhelmingly continue to support membership of the European Union. This is particularly true among young people. They did not have a say in the Brexit referendum in 2016, so it is deeply unreasonable to say that it is now down to them to sort it all out.

The third key area of debate is that somehow or other the issue of the border has been exaggerated; some have even used the word “weaponised”. However, just two days before the EU referendum the Prime Minister, Theresa May, said:

“if we were out of the European Union with tariffs on exporting goods into the EU, there would have to be something to recognise that between Northern Ireland and the Republic of Ireland. And if you pulled out of the EU and came out of free movement, then how could you have a situation where there was an open border with a country that was in the EU and had access to free movement?”

On this I agree with the Prime Minister.

During an EU Select Committee visit to Ireland and Northern Ireland in January, we heard many people voicing concern about the differences in interpretation in London and in Dublin on the joint agreement reached between the EU and the UK on 8 December. In Dublin there is understandably a firm belief that it was an agreement that was to be honoured by both sides.

The purpose of Amendment 215 is to give effect to paragraphs 49 and 50 of the joint report agreed on 8 December. Paragraph 49 of the joint agreement envisages three different scenarios for finding a solution to the Irish border issue. The second scenario envisages,

“specific solutions to address the unique circumstances of the island of Ireland”.

The noble Lord, Lord Browne, has already read out the details of paragraph 49, so I ask the Minister when the Government intend to come forward with these specific solutions, and why they have not yet come forward with proposals. I am sure the Minister will agree that this is becoming increasingly urgent, given the imminent European Council where these issues will be examined on 23 March.

I shall conclude by saying a few words about some of the unseen consequences of leaving the European Union, and the impact on the Good Friday Belfast agreement. Since we both joined the European Economic Community in 1973, Irish and UK Ministers have had the opportunity to sit around the table in Brussels on a monthly basis. They have sat around that table as equals. These meetings have provided an unseen but vital opportunity to discuss the issues of the day and to work around problems. This has provided a vital information flow which has had a not inconsiderable influence on the peace process. In his concluding remarks, can the Minister say what thought the Government have given to enhancing UK-Ireland relations in the absence of these hugely valuable diplomatic channels? On this, as with so many other issues surrounding Brexit, the full consequences are not yet fully understood, but we must do all we can to avoid any reversal of the hard-won peace and progress achieved over the last 20 years.

[Lord Murphy of Torfaen (Lab)]

My Lords, I support the amendment so eloquently spoken to by my noble friend Lord Hain. I remind the House that we are three weeks away from the 20th anniversary of the Good Friday agreement. Those two decades ago it was my privilege, as the political development Minister at the time, to chair a good part of those negotiations—but in 1997 I had been appointed by the Prime Minister to be the European Minister as well. There is a link between the two, which is why I wanted to speak to this amendment.

The committee of your Lordships’ House that looked at this matter some months ago concluded that common European Union membership had laid the groundwork for the development of the peace process. Indeed, the preamble to the Good Friday agreement says that the two Governments wished,

“to develop still further the unique relationship between their peoples and the close co-operation between their countries as friendly neighbours and as partners in the European Union”.

There can be no doubt that throughout the whole of that agreement the three strands—strand 1, which dealt with the internal arrangements within Northern Ireland; strand 2, which dealt with the relations between the north and the south of the island of Ireland; and strand 3, which dealt with east-west relations between the two countries of Ireland and the United Kingdom—and all the other elements of the Good Friday agreement were underpinned by that common membership of the European Union.

In strand 1, much of the success of the last 20 years has been based upon the European funding in Northern Ireland, not least of which was the actual peace money itself, which helped to produce peace, stability and prosperity in Northern Ireland. In strand 2, where these bodies north and south come together, much of what they did relied upon the common membership of the European Union, again with regard to funding but other issues as well. Strand 3 set up the British-Irish Council and the British-Irish Intergovernmental Conference, both of which deal with matters affecting the European Union. In the paragraphs cited by my noble friend Lord Browne a few minutes ago, the Government themselves accept that the Good Friday agreement must be kept intact when Brexit occurs.

Another issue, perhaps not so legal but very important, is the fact that in my view the agreement would not have been successful if the Republic of Ireland and the United Kingdom had not entered the European Union together in 1973. That meant that time after time, day after day, even hour after hour, in Brussels and elsewhere, the two Governments could talk at ministerial and official level. That talking meant that the old bad relations between the two countries faded away, as, of course, did the border itself. The blurring of the border as a result of the events of the last 20 years has been hugely significant in not just economic and security terms but in psychological terms, because that border has gone in the minds of both nationalists and unionists. Its resurrection would be an absolute disaster. Whatever one’s views on Brexit, the idea of returning to what had been there before would be extremely backward looking.

The other issue to which my noble friend referred was that the Good Friday agreement is an international treaty. The two Governments of Britain and the Republic of Ireland are joint guarantors of the Good Friday agreement. The responsibility rests upon our shoulders to ensure that all the aspects of that agreement, which are as fresh today in my mind as they were 20 years ago, are guaranteed by the two Governments.

Senator George Mitchell, who will come over to Northern Ireland in a couple of weeks’ time to commemorate the Good Friday agreement, said a couple of days ago that there were 700 days of failure and one day of success in the talks which led to the Good Friday agreement. If we do not ensure that we deal with the border and respect all the aspects of the Good Friday agreement, we cannot allow the Brexit negotiations to put at risk the great worth and good that has come to Northern Ireland and, indeed, to Ireland and the United Kingdom, as a consequence of what we did two decades ago.

Northern Ireland Finances

Debate between Lord Murphy of Torfaen and Baroness Suttie

Tuesday 13th March 2018 Lords Chamber

[Lord Murphy of Torfaen (Lab)]

My Lords, I thank the Minister for the Statement, and agree with him on the need to restore the devolved institutions in Northern Ireland, especially as it is about four weeks away from the 20th anniversary of the signing of the Good Friday agreement. The commitment of the Government to the underlying principles of that agreement is very much to be welcomed.

I understand the need to set a budget and agree that it is wholly inadequate for civil servants, however good—and, indeed, they are all good—to decide the spending priorities in Northern Ireland. Can the Minister tell us a little bit more about the consultation process that has occurred with the political parties and others in Northern Ireland, specifically on the regional rate and on the allocation of resources to the different departments in Northern Ireland? In particular, will he tell us about the consultation on the Bengoa proposals on the health service in Northern Ireland, and where we are on that important matter?

The Minister raised the difficult—perhaps even controversial—issue of the salaries of Members of the Legislative Assembly. Does he envisage a time limit on the consultation with the political parties in Northern Ireland? During the course of his Statement, he mentioned that there would be a need for legislation to implement parts of the budget and to vary the salaries of the MLAs. Can he give the House an indication of when such legislation might be before us? Lastly, does he accept that this budget-setting exercise is not a road to direct rule, and that robust and meaningful talks on setting up the institutions in Northern Ireland will begin very shortly?

[Baroness Suttie (LD)]

My Lords, I too thank the Minister for repeating yesterday’s Statement. However, there is a slightly wearying sense of déjà vu about it, and one cannot help but wonder at what point these sticking-plaster solutions will cease to be viable. Clearly, however, a return to direct rule is something that we all wish to avoid, and we continue to believe firmly that power-sharing devolution is vital to local democracy and representative decision-making. In that regard, the Secretary of State’s reassertion of the Government’s commitment to both the Good Friday Belfast agreement and to re-establishing functioning devolution in Northern Ireland is very much to be welcomed.

We on these Benches recognise the pressures on public services, meaning that these measures are essential to ensuring that the people of Northern Ireland do not suffer in the provision of vital services, and to ensuring that education and healthcare services can function and that peace and stability can be maintained by the PSNI. The Police Federation has warned that the 0.3% increase in the Ministry of Justice budget will inflict real damage on the PSNI. The PSNI is currently spending £125,000 a day on overtime to fill gaps in its workforce capacity. Can the Minister confirm that ensuring that the PSNI is able to carry out its work effectively remains a key priority for the Government? The Civil Service in Northern Ireland, as the noble Lord, Lord Murphy, has said, continues to do sterling service in keeping the system functioning but, without the direct input of Northern Ireland Ministers, much-needed long-term strategic planning for Northern Ireland becomes increasingly difficult.

In the Statement on 20 February, in reply to my question about the introduction of an independent mediator to chair the all-party talks and to attempt to bring new impetus to the drive to re-establish an Executive in Northern Ireland, the Minister said nothing was ruled out. Can he give an update on whether that is still an option that is being actively considered? Can he also outline what other initiatives are being actively considered to break the current impasse in the talks?

I note the ongoing discussions on MLA pay and the Reaney review. What representations has the Secretary of State had on this issue from political parties in Northern Ireland? In the Statement the Secretary of State says,

“it would be irresponsible for us not to consider how we might provide for different arrangements until such time as the devolved institutions are back up and running”.

Can the Minister confirm that this would involve options allowing Members of the Assembly to play an active role in ensuring that Northern Ireland’s voice is heard clearly in the Brexit negotiations?