Northern Ireland Finances

Baroness Suttie Excerpts

Tuesday 13th March 2018 Lords Chamber

[Lord Murphy of Torfaen (Lab)]

My Lords, I thank the Minister for the Statement, and agree with him on the need to restore the devolved institutions in Northern Ireland, especially as it is about four weeks away from the 20th anniversary of the signing of the Good Friday agreement. The commitment of the Government to the underlying principles of that agreement is very much to be welcomed.

I understand the need to set a budget and agree that it is wholly inadequate for civil servants, however good—and, indeed, they are all good—to decide the spending priorities in Northern Ireland. Can the Minister tell us a little bit more about the consultation process that has occurred with the political parties and others in Northern Ireland, specifically on the regional rate and on the allocation of resources to the different departments in Northern Ireland? In particular, will he tell us about the consultation on the Bengoa proposals on the health service in Northern Ireland, and where we are on that important matter?

The Minister raised the difficult—perhaps even controversial—issue of the salaries of Members of the Legislative Assembly. Does he envisage a time limit on the consultation with the political parties in Northern Ireland? During the course of his Statement, he mentioned that there would be a need for legislation to implement parts of the budget and to vary the salaries of the MLAs. Can he give the House an indication of when such legislation might be before us? Lastly, does he accept that this budget-setting exercise is not a road to direct rule, and that robust and meaningful talks on setting up the institutions in Northern Ireland will begin very shortly?

[Baroness Suttie (LD)]

My Lords, I too thank the Minister for repeating yesterday’s Statement. However, there is a slightly wearying sense of déjà vu about it, and one cannot help but wonder at what point these sticking-plaster solutions will cease to be viable. Clearly, however, a return to direct rule is something that we all wish to avoid, and we continue to believe firmly that power-sharing devolution is vital to local democracy and representative decision-making. In that regard, the Secretary of State’s reassertion of the Government’s commitment to both the Good Friday Belfast agreement and to re-establishing functioning devolution in Northern Ireland is very much to be welcomed.

We on these Benches recognise the pressures on public services, meaning that these measures are essential to ensuring that the people of Northern Ireland do not suffer in the provision of vital services, and to ensuring that education and healthcare services can function and that peace and stability can be maintained by the PSNI. The Police Federation has warned that the 0.3% increase in the Ministry of Justice budget will inflict real damage on the PSNI. The PSNI is currently spending £125,000 a day on overtime to fill gaps in its workforce capacity. Can the Minister confirm that ensuring that the PSNI is able to carry out its work effectively remains a key priority for the Government? The Civil Service in Northern Ireland, as the noble Lord, Lord Murphy, has said, continues to do sterling service in keeping the system functioning but, without the direct input of Northern Ireland Ministers, much-needed long-term strategic planning for Northern Ireland becomes increasingly difficult.

In the Statement on 20 February, in reply to my question about the introduction of an independent mediator to chair the all-party talks and to attempt to bring new impetus to the drive to re-establish an Executive in Northern Ireland, the Minister said nothing was ruled out. Can he give an update on whether that is still an option that is being actively considered? Can he also outline what other initiatives are being actively considered to break the current impasse in the talks?

I note the ongoing discussions on MLA pay and the Reaney review. What representations has the Secretary of State had on this issue from political parties in Northern Ireland? In the Statement the Secretary of State says,

“it would be irresponsible for us not to consider how we might provide for different arrangements until such time as the devolved institutions are back up and running”.

Can the Minister confirm that this would involve options allowing Members of the Assembly to play an active role in ensuring that Northern Ireland’s voice is heard clearly in the Brexit negotiations?

[Lord Duncan of Springbank]

I thank the noble Lord and the noble Baroness for their contributions. It is important for us to stress again at the outset that we are all united in our belief that the Belfast agreement itself must be the foundation upon which we build all our progress. I think we are all of the same view. I am aware that we are experiencing a recurring sense of déjà vu—we certainly are with some of my Statements—but it is our ambition to secure the reformation of a functional and sustainable Executive in Northern Ireland.

I think it is important for me to answer the questions directly as they have been raised. On the question from the noble Lord, Lord Murphy, on how we came to the figures within the overall budget, he is right to stress that we have put a great deal of pressure and stress upon the Northern Ireland Civil Service, but it has been very important in determining departmental needs. That has been the first building block. The second is that, as he will be aware, a budget briefing was published just before Christmas. The Northern Ireland Office has reflected very carefully upon the responses that were received in the light of that briefing from the main parties of Northern Ireland, and they have been borne in mind. In addition, my right hon. friend the Secretary of State for Northern Ireland has undertaken a fairly extensive engagement with individual stakeholders —teachers, doctors, nurses, and police officers—to understand the challenges faced on the ground. It is important to reflect on how important that is.

The figures we are talking about are substantial, and I believe they will make a substantial difference. We have £80 million of support for immediate health and education pressures, £30 million to support programmes to address issues of mental health and severe deprivation, £100 million for ongoing work to transform the health service in line with broad-based consensus fostered by the Bengoa report, and a £200 million allocation in capital spending for key infrastructure projects.

That gives a sense of the scale of the investment. There is also a recognition, as we build that budget—we have spoken of this before—of trying to plot a trajectory from the point at which the previous Executive fell, and then trying to plot across. We have had to take that as a basis and build on it, and that is why £4 million has been allocated to prepare the ground for transformation and £100 million set out for health transformation, recognising again that these are part of the critical elements that are identified by departmental heads in the Civil Service and the main political parties.

On the question of MLA pay, I stress again that my right honourable friend the Secretary of State for Northern Ireland would like the views of others to make sure that in her determination and deliberation she can deliver exactly what is required. I am mindful of the point made by the noble Baroness, Lady Suttie, about the potential roles for the MLAs themselves—even without being part of a functional Executive. As I said in a previous Statement on a not dissimilar topic, we have not ruled anything out, and would welcome the thoughts of the noble Baroness, Lady Suttie on that point, to help us in our thinking. As for when we can anticipate the legislation, if I may be slightly non-specific, we will bring forward necessary legislation imminently to deliver against the budget as we have set it out.

The noble Baroness, Lady Suttie, raised the PSNI. Again, I can be very clear and specific and say that it remains a key priority of the Government, and we will do all we can to preserve that and deliver against it.

As to the question of an independent mediator, noble Lords will be aware that we are in an interregnum—the talks have ended but are not over—and that period of reflection has given all of us an opportunity to work out what additional aspects of engagement should be brought to the table. I am becoming a little repetitive, but I will say again that we are ruling nothing out. Anything we can do to take this forward must form part of that.

We also hope that the parties involved in the talks will take advantage of this period to reflect not just on what they wish to deliver for the parties themselves but for the wider communities they represent. That will be essential. If the talks are to deliver an outcome that is sustainable, meaningful and restores local government to Northern Ireland, we need to be able to depend on them. There are too many important issues unfolding right now, not just in our House, but affecting everyone in Northern Ireland. It is time that we heard those voices in an Executive and an Assembly.