Welsh Assembly Legislation (Attorney-General)

Lord Murphy of Torfaen Excerpts

Tuesday 15th October 2013 Commons Chamber

[Paul Flynn]

My hon. Friend gives a splendid example. This is the reverse of devolution, the very opposite of what the new Minister of State at the Cabinet Office said the other day about local opinion and good ideas. Wales has a stronger case for an Agricultural Wages Board, perhaps, than many parts of England, so we should be able to make a different decision, but the Government object.

[Paul Murphy (Torfaen) (Lab)]

I congratulate my hon. Friend on securing the debate. Should it not be the case—it certainly was when I was Welsh Secretary—that disputes between devolved Administrations and the United Kingdom Government should be resolved at a governmental and political level, and that they should never get to a stage where they are resolved by the courts?

--- Later in debate ---

[Paul Murphy (Torfaen) (Lab)]

Unexpectedly, I rise to support my hon. Friend the Member for Newport West (Paul Flynn) on this issue. I do not actually think the Attorney-General’s Office is to blame for the situation. The system is to blame, because it means that issues are resolved through the courts when they should be resolved through the political process.

The whole purpose of the Wales Office and its counterparts in Northern Ireland and Scotland is to resolve disputes such as those that have been described in a proper political way, so that they never have to enter a court of law, let alone end up going to the Supreme Court and costing so much money. When I was first appointed Secretary of State for Wales, virtually all the responsibilities of my predecessors had gone to the National Assembly for Wales. Although my hon. Friend and I—we have been friends for far too many years to remember—were not always on the same path on the issue, we have ended up in the same place on it, not least because the people of Wales recently voted to extend the Assembly’s powers. For the first time, it will have the right to produce its own primary legislation.

The Solicitor-General will know that disputes in government are resolved either through correspondence or, if that cannot work, through Ministers meeting. In the case of matters involving devolved Administrations, Ministers of the Crown meet other Ministers of the Crown who happen to be in the devolved Administrations in Scotland, Wales and Northern Ireland. Beyond that, there is machinery, for which I was once responsible, for joint ministerial committees. If necessary, there is the British-Irish Council. All that means that matters can be resolved in a way that avoids the need to go to the courts. Of course, the situation is not the same when different parties are in government in London and Cardiff, but the principle is the same—to try to resolve the problem.

I rather fancy that the Solicitor-General will talk about whether the National Assembly has the powers to do certain things and whether it acts ultra vires or intra vires. Even those points can be resolved by diplomatic means, however, if they are talked through. By going to the Supreme Court, we press the nuclear button. Although that might satisfy the lawyers, civil servants and Ministers who think it should be done, they are unwittingly doing immense damage to the devolutionary settlement, whether in Wales, Scotland or Northern Ireland. The whole purpose of devolving legislation and administration to those three countries and regions of the United Kingdom is that they are allowed, by Act of Parliament and by referendum, to take their own decisions. If the Government do not like something, a crafty way to stop it is not through negotiation among Ministers but by going to the courts. That is the wrong way to do it.

A lot of the problem is the general inexperience in government of how devolution works. For many years, I was frustrated with Whitehall Departments because they did not understand what devolution meant. The purpose of the territorial Departments of State for Wales, Scotland and Northern Ireland is to undertake liaison between the Governments of Wales, Scotland and Northern Ireland and that of the United Kingdom.

[Stephen Doughty]

My right hon. Friend is making a strong case. Does he agree that at play here was something much more sinister because, in the case of the Agricultural Wages Board, the Welsh Government were going to show up the UK Government in what they were doing and what we were trying to protect? Let us not forget that the measure was to protect more than 13,000 low-paid agricultural workers in Wales. The use of this constitutional process shows not only disrespect for devolution, but a way of trying to get away from something the Government did not want to be shown up in public.

[Paul Murphy]

There are two ways of looking at it. There are party political differences because of the different parties in the different countries, but I also experienced that when Labour was in government and other state Departments were not necessarily sympathetic to what the Welsh Government were doing. It was my job to say, “You might not like it, but you’ve got to do it because that is what devolution is all about.” Otherwise, what is the point of having it in the first place?

[Huw Irranca-Davies]

When I served under my right hon. Friend as Under-Secretary of State for Wales, a signature of his tenure in office was that at all times such resolutions were dealt with early and within our mechanisms. It was a signal failure if something had to escalate to another constitutional mechanism, and it did not go at all to the Supreme Court.

[Paul Murphy]

I am grateful to my hon. Friend for his remarks, and there is machinery within the Government system for resolving disputes between the devolved Administrations and their Parliaments, and the United Kingdom Government. That has been set up for nearly 16 years and is precisely to deal with those areas of considerable difference. In my view, that includes whether there is a dispute, and whether something is intra vires or ultra vires. I repeat: to take the issue to the courts is to press the nuclear button and could cause immeasurable damage to the devolution settlement.