Northern Ireland (Executive Formation) Bill

Lord Morrow Excerpts

Committee: 1st sitting (Hansard - continued): House of Lords
Monday 15th July 2019 Lords Chamber

Moved by

[Lord Morrow]

17: Clause 8, page 5, line 35, at end insert—
“(1A) Any regulations under this section must include provision—(a) prohibiting any person or religious body being compelled by any means (including by the enforcement of a contract or a statutory or other legal requirement) to—(i) conduct a same-sex marriage,(ii) be present at, carry out, or otherwise participate in, a same-sex marriage,(iii) consent to a same-sex marriage being conducted, or(iv) permit premises to be used for a same-sex marriage ceremony,if the marriage is to be solemnised according to the rites of a religion;(b) prohibiting discrimination claims against a person or religious body for refusing to do anything listed within paragraph (a);(c) prohibiting discrimination claims in relation to employment for the purposes of an organised religion where a person refuses to employ or otherwise appoint a person married to a person of the same sex;(d) protecting freedom for discussion or criticism of marriage which concerns the sex of the parties to marriage, including urging persons to refrain from marrying a person of the same sex; (e) requiring the Secretary of State to issue statutory guidance supporting freedom of expression and freedom of conscience in educational institutions in relation to beliefs about the definition of marriage.(1B) Provision made under subsection (1A) shall provide no less protection for freedom of expression and freedom of religion than applies in England and Wales.”

[Lord Morrow (DUP)]

My Lords, the main purpose of this amendment,

“prohibiting discrimination claims against a person or religious body for refusing to do anything listed within paragraph (a)”,

is simply to ensure that there will be no fewer safeguards for free speech and religious liberty in Northern Ireland after same-sex marriage is introduced than there are here in England and Wales. I genuinely fear, and I believe it is a reasonable fear, that Northern Ireland will be poorly served in the protections given unless we make this amendment.

The extension of marriage in England and Wales was done by primary legislation, after many hours of debate in this House and the other place. For Northern Ireland, it will be done through regulations, which are not designed for highly controversial, sensitive and divisive subjects of this kind. They do not receive the level of scrutiny that this issue should. As all noble Lords know, there is no opportunity to amend regulations. Therefore, the regulations must contain adequate protections from the start. There was a public consultation on this issue in England and Wales before the legislation was even introduced. That consultation process raised areas of concern, such as religious liberty. These could then be given safeguards in the legislation and included in the scrutiny received in Parliament.

It seems that there will be no consultation before the Secretary of State is required to exercise this power. There is no time. There has never been a consultation on this issue in Northern Ireland, so the people of Northern Ireland are already being poorly treated.

Those of us who were part of the debate during the passage of the Marriage (Same Sex Couples) Act several years ago will remember the quadruple locks. Not all the quadruple locks will need to apply to Northern Ireland, but it will be vital that the necessary protections for religious liberty are in place. As things stand, there is nothing in Clause 8 to secure those protections, which must be integral to any introduction of same-sex marriage to Northern Ireland.

My amendment would require the Secretary of State’s regulations to include provision in certain key areas, but it is by no means comprehensive. The rushed nature of this process has made it impossible to think through the full implications, but these are areas that stand out.

There is particular concern about access to publicly owned facilities. There are churches in Northern Ireland, as here, that meet in council-run community centres or schools. Christian groups in Northern Ireland run events for children on premises owned by the public sector. The concern is that a council might, for example, make access to such facilities conditional on the church or religious body being willing to conduct same-sex marriages. Such stipulation must be explicitly ruled out. This is the focus of proposed new paragraph (a). This safeguard exists under the law in England and Wales. The language in the amendment of “compelled by any means” is taken directly from the 2013 Act. I simply want to ensure that Northern Ireland has the same level of protection.

Proposed new paragraphs (b) and (c), relating to discrimination law, are also designed to ensure that Northern Ireland matches England and Wales—and, indeed, Scotland. When same-sex marriage laws were introduced in the rest of the United Kingdom, a series of amendments was made to the Equality Act 2010. They protect religious organisations from discrimination claims for declining to participate in same-sex marriages, for declining to allow their premises to be used for same-sex marriage ceremonies and for not employing a person married to a member of the same sex. Similar protections must be written into the relevant Northern Ireland discrimination statutes. Without them, churches could be sued simply for requiring that their employees live in accordance with the doctrine of the church on sexual ethics. For example, I believe that the Church of England diocese of Southwell and Nottingham relied on just such a provision in the Pemberton case.

Also, when the 2013 Act was introduced, the Public Order Act 1986 was amended to ensure that criticism of same-sex marriage did not in itself amount to hate speech. Proposed new paragraph (d) requires such changes as are necessary to Northern Ireland law, including public order legislation, to protect the freedom to disagree. This is the core of any democracy. The introduction of same-sex marriage does not mean that everybody has to agree with it or that only one view may be expressed in the public square.

Finally, proposed new paragraph (e) deals with education. Following the introduction of the 2013 Act, the Government made it clear that teachers had the right to express their own beliefs on marriage. A fact sheet from the time said that,

“teachers have the clear right to express their own beliefs, or those of their faith, about marriage of same sex couples as long as it is done in an appropriate and balanced way”.

Guidance in 2014 from the DfE on the Equality Act 2010 said:

“No school, or individual teacher, is under a duty to support, promote or endorse marriage of same sex couples”.


There was also guidance from the Equality and Human Rights Commission repeating that assurance and adding:

“Governors, teachers and non-teaching staff in schools, parents and pupils, are free to hold their own religious or philosophical beliefs about marriage of same sex couples”.


The many people involved in education in Northern Ireland who hold to traditional views on marriage would appreciate similar reassurance and guidance. I beg to move.

--- Later in debate ---

[Lord Duncan of Springbank]

My Lords, this has been a thought-provoking discussion. I am often guided by my own beliefs and I recognise Ecclesiastes chapter 4, verses 9 to 10:

“Two are better than one … for if they fall, one will lift up the other”.


I am heartened by the remarks of the noble Lord, Lord Hayward, because I do not doubt that he will be working closely with Conor McGinn from the other place to ensure that what comes to this House carries with it the exact protections and care that we have seen in England and Wales and in Scotland. There are elements which need to be recognised in terms of the wider question of freedom of religion and freedom of expression, and I hope to see those protections coming through in an emerging amendment. As I said, the amendment from the other place has certain deficiencies and we hope to see those improved through the work which I do not doubt the noble Lord, Lord Hayward, among others, will help move forward.

It is important, again, that we balance rights, obligations and protections throughout, not least in schools, and we must make sure that we are teaching the reality of what is going on. We need to make sure that pupils understand the wider question of relationships before they ever engage in sex education. I draw a distinction between relationships and sexual elements; I think they need to be seen in that context. It is important to remember that these issues have been addressed previously in different parts of the United Kingdom. These are not new issues. The concerns of particular bodies are not new and on each occasion I believe that the different authorities, whether in Scotland or in England and Wales, have learned from the challenges and have ensured that the protections which they have put together are adequate to address the concerns raised by noble Lords.

I appreciate the concerns which noble Lords have expressed. They are right to recognise that there is throughout Northern Ireland and elsewhere a particular constituency which sees the faith-based approach to marriage as an integral part of it. I do not doubt the validity of that or the importance of recognising why that must be accepted and trusted, but at the same time the wider context needs to be considered. I hope the amendment we see coming forward addresses these issues. On that basis, we hope that this amendment can be withdrawn. My final point is: congratulations to the noble Baroness, Lady Barker.

[Lord Morrow]

My Lords, I have listened carefully to what has been said in response to this debate and sometimes I end up more confused, but that is maybe more to do with me than anyone else. I take some comfort from the fact that the noble Lord, Lord Hayward, has grasped exactly what we are trying to do here, and I will be watching the progress of this with deep interest. Maybe on this occasion I can look more to the noble Lord, Lord Hayward, for some protection because he has not tried to throw in other issues that are not there.

Amendment 17 withdrawn.

--- Later in debate ---

[Lord Morrow]

My Lords, I have prepared a speech but I do not intend to make it. It is a pleasure, in a strange way, to follow the noble Lord, Lord Shinkwin, this evening. I heartily congratulate him because we know that what he says comes from the heart. His words have a ring of reality about them, of which this House should take note. I also congratulate the noble Baroness, Lady O’Loan, on her excellent contribution and on moving the amendment. While I am on my feet, I should say that the name of my noble friend Lord Hay of Ballyore is attached to the amendment, but for unavoidable reasons he cannot be here today. He regrets that immensely. I want to put on the record our total and absolute support for what has been said and I, too, commend the amendment to the Committee.

[Baroness Barker]

My Lords, lest people watching this debate take from it a one-sided view, I want to say that in 2018 an international poll was taken in Northern Ireland which showed that 68% of the respondents did not believe that people should be criminalised for having an abortion and that, if necessary, action should be taken in Westminster to make sure that that happens. The Northern Ireland Life and Times Survey also showed that 89% of people in Northern Ireland believe that no one should go to prison for having had an abortion. It is a poll run by, among others, Queen’s University, Belfast. I know that the noble Baroness, Lady O’Loan, relies on the ComRes polls; people on her side of the argument always do. However, they are not the objective views that she might lead noble Lords to believe.

I have to say that, coming at this stage, the proposals in her amendment suggest that these matters can effectively be blocked by Members of the Assembly. That is what the power in her amendment would do.

--- Later in debate ---

Moved by

[Lord Morrow]

24: After Clause 9, insert the following new Clause—
“Definition of Victim
(1) The Secretary of State must make regulations to change the definition of “victim” in Article 3 of the Victims and Survivors (Northern Ireland) Order 2006 (S.I. 2006/2953 (N.I. 17)) to apply only to a person who is injured or affected wholly by the actions of another person.(2) Regulations under this section must be in force no later than 21 October 2019, subject to subsections (3) and (4).(3) A statutory instrument containing regulations under subsection (1)—(a) must be laid before both Houses of Parliament;(b) is subject to annulment in pursuance of a resolution of either House of Parliament.(4) If a Northern Ireland Executive is formed before the regulations under this section come into force, any regulations made under this section and any extant obligations arising under subsection (1) shall cease to have effect.”

[Lord Morrow]

My Lords, I intend to be brief on this because I will keep before me what has been said in the debate on the amendment of the noble Lord, Lord Hain. I recognise that much of what was said compares with what I hope to say.

The definition of a victim has been a matter of great angst in Northern Ireland since its inception. Consideration of government proposals in the past has been coloured by the dissatisfaction people feel over an unfair definition of a victim. This has been a running sore for some 13 years. We have met many individual victims and several groups representing victims’ organisations. The victim definition is repeatedly raised with us as their key issue.

We consider the 2006 definition of a victim and survivor to be unacceptable, unfair and downright insulting. In our view, there is a clear distinction in law between a terrorist perpetrator and their innocent victim. To equate the two is morally wrong and totally indefensible. We have previously tabled legislative proposals to change the definition of a victim, but to no avail at this stage. We believe the Government should bring forward plans now to change the definition of a victim so that there is a clear distinction between perpetrators and victims. In any civilised society, it cannot be right that victims and perpetrators are treated as equals. We believe that this could improve the existing climate and context regarding consideration of the past and legacy proposals.

The Secretary of State wrote in the foreword of the legacy consultation document:

“A Conservative Government will reject any attempts to rewrite the history of the past that seeks to justify or legitimise republican or loyalist terrorism or which seeks to displace responsibility from the people who perpetrated acts of terrorism”.


A perpetrator of an unlawful act cannot at the same time be a victim of the act they have perpetrated. Someone who pulled a trigger or planted a bomb should not be treated in the same manner as their innocent victims. This matter is fundamental to victims’ views. In our engagement with a number of victims’ organisations, we have been struck by extremely powerful testimony illustrating the depth and rawness of hurt and insult they feel at their loved ones being placed in the same category as terrorist perpetrators.

The DUP has a proud record on victims and legacy issues. In government, we quadrupled funding for victims. We have stood against a rewriting of our history and efforts to introduce an amnesty. Current arrangements for dealing with the past are utterly unacceptable. There is a clear imbalance, and continuation of the status quo will lead to further rewriting of the narrative of the Troubles. Innocent victims are not seeing progress on investigations into the murder of their loved ones. I beg to move.

[Lord Empey]

My Lords, I think the exchanges during the debate on the amendment of the noble Lord, Lord Hain, have the seeds of a solution within them. I would be supportive of that. He made the distinction between the provision of services and pensions for people who have been victims, so we understand that there is an issue there, but the whole question of legacy is still unresolved. There are still proposals out there, including the historical inquiries unit and other ideas that have been brought forward, which could threaten and help to rewrite the history, as has been referred to. But I believe from the exchange we had earlier that we are close to a form of words to find an acceptable solution to all of this that everybody can be comfortable with and move forward on. I certainly hope that that can be achieved.

--- Later in debate ---

[Lord Duncan of Springbank]

My Lords, I appreciate that the definition of a victim has bedevilled a number of people over a great number of years. I read with great interest the Eames-Bradley report, of which the noble and right reverend Lord is one author, Applying appropriate caveats to our earlier discussion with the noble Lord, Lord Hain, regarding the victims’ pension, there are distinctions. None the less, if indeed, as the noble Lord, Lord Empey, has said, these could perhaps be the seeds of a particular solution, we may be closer to a definition than has been the case for some time.

The Government have already accepted a reporting requirement to publish a report on or before 4 September 2019 on whether the definition of “victim” in Article 3 of the Victims and Survivors (Northern Ireland) Order 2006 should be revised to apply only to a person who is injured or affected wholly through the actions of another person. In addition, my honourable friend the Minister of State John Penrose committed in the Commons that Her Majesty’s Government recognise that the definition of a victim is something that a number of honourable and right honourable Members have campaigned on for a number of years, and commit to looking UK-wide at how we can make sure that victims are duly protected. That is a step in the right direction. We are closer than we have been before. Of course, there is still some way to go. I recognise that historically there have been challenges, which I noted earlier, and I am aware that the parties in Northern Ireland themselves have not always reached consensus on this particular approach. If we are indeed closer, I hope that we can make some progress and on that basis I hope that the noble Lord will feel able to withdraw his amendment.

[Lord Morrow]

My Lords, when I introduced my amendment, I said that I would keep before me what was said during the earlier debate on the amendment of the noble Lord, Lord Hain. Having listened to what has been said, I will not press the amendment tonight. Rather, we will watch progress on this matter. But the Government should take note that this matter has to be dealt with. It will not go away. I beg leave to withdraw the amendment.

Amendment 24 withdrawn.