Small Business, Enterprise and Employment Bill

Lord Mitchell Excerpts

Monday 26th January 2015 Grand Committee

[Lord Storey]

I very much thank the noble Baroness for tabling this important amendment. In doing so, she brings with her a wealth of experience in this area. We know of Members in both the House of Lords and the other place who employ interns—I was conscious of that when I first came to Parliament—but you can do that only if your parents can look after you financially. If you are living on a council estate in Sheffield, Liverpool or Glasgow—let us keep the full nations in and also say Swansea—your chance of doing an internship in Westminster would be non-existent. We also know that if you do an internship in Westminster, it is an opportunity for real career advancement.

My view is that all internships should be open and accessible, and freely advertised. They should be paid after an agreed period, at minimum wage, and be for a set period so that we level the playing field and it will not be just the rich and wealthy who can afford to provide those opportunities for their children. Everybody could have that opportunity as well. But there are real difficulties in this area; it is not quite as simple as we think. I thought, “Great. Interns should be paid”, et cetera, but then we have to think carefully through the issues. That is why this probing amendment is so important.

What is the position of work experience? As a former employer, I remember that local schools would send pupils for two weeks’ work experience. What about volunteering and genuine volunteers? A close friend of mine volunteers every Saturday to work in the local Oxfam charity shop. How does that work out? Some young people generally want to volunteer—with no ambition to follow a career in that area but because they have a social conscience. The other issue is: how does that fit in with sandwich courses at universities, where people will go from university as an intern for a full year? Those things need to be carefully considered because of the interrelationship between them, and because of the issues of taxation and finance involved.

My only concern about the amendment is that it calls for a report in 12 months’ time; I think that it needs to be sooner, rather than later. When the Minister replies, I hope that we will hear some supportive sounds about the probing amendment.

Finally, I was quite surprised that when I tabled a Written Question asking how many interns there were in Westminster, the Government were unable to provide that information, which seemed to me bizarre.

[Lord Mitchell (Lab)]

My Lords, I support my noble friend Lady Donaghy’s probing amendment. I have to make a declaration of interests. I am chairman of a company called Instant Impact. The principal business of that company is the recruitment of graduates from universities, which is obviously close to what we are discussing today.

“The condition of your birth does not determine the outcome of your life”.

Those are not my words, but those of an unlikely source, US Republican Congressman Paul Ryan, a staunch right-winger and not one we would expect to support the nanny state. Who among us could disagree with that?

Of course, in the Labour Party, we believe passionately that everyone should have an equal chance to succeed, no matter what his or her background may be, but the Conservative and Liberal Democrat parties are wedded to the same mantra: whatever our birth may be, each of us should have the same opportunity.

When most of us were young and seeking our first jobs, it really did not matter whether we had worked as interns. Indeed, the term barely existed. Sadly, all that mattered was where the candidate went to school and, more importantly, where the candidate went to university. In my case, Ealing Technical College probably did not stack up too highly. A good degree was a help, but not a necessity. A gentleman’s third-class honours was still acceptable with a wink and a rueful smile. That was true then, but no longer.

Today, the CV has become a rite of passage. It must be fine-tuned and honed, with not so much the right school, but certainly the right university and, without question, the right level of honours degree. The soft factors also count: sporting activity, cultural pursuits and charities supported. In a highly competitive world, whatever makes you stand out and interesting will help you to land the job you want. These days, young people need to include job experience on their CVs. They need to show that they have worked for a series of organisations and that they have become well rounded individuals. One of the ways that they do that is by becoming interns.

To the wealthy and well connected, getting their sons and daughters into suitable internships is relatively easy. I bet that many of us in the Room today have address books that other people would kill for. We have access to everyone who counts and, even if we do not, we have no problem in working the network to make sure that we get our children or grandchildren through the door. Some of us are able to fund our children if they do not get paid for their internship. After all, we can argue that it is the final part of their education and goes with the territory.

As a result, whole swathes of our economy are riddled with unpaid interns. The media, fashion, advertising and the new social media companies recruit unpaid interns at will, simply because they can. As has been said, how many Members of Parliament or Peers in our own Palace of Westminster have unpaid interns working in their offices or their constituencies? I do not know the answer but I would bet that the number is much higher than most of us suspect.

What happens if your parents do not have the contacts or are simply unable to fund you while you are working for nothing? I hope that the Government accept my noble friend’s amendment because we need more information about whether people are being exploited. If they are, I hope that the Minister will commit to looking at a four-week limit, as suggested by Intern Aware. I should like to hear the Minister’s views on this. I hope that she does not suggest—as the noble Lord, Lord Popat, did, when the noble Lord, Lord Storey, asked a Question in the House a few weeks ago—that we should refer to the Government’s Graduate Talent Pool for an answer. I have never heard of it and nor has anyone else I know. It really does not feature on the intern recruitment side. I also ask her not to suggest that HMRC has the powers to intervene and that it can hunt down any offenders. It is stretched to capacity, and anyhow it has other fish to fry.

There are many organisations that support the four-week limit. Axa, a major insurance company, says that a four-week limit to unpaid internships will ensure a fair opportunity for everyone. Ernst & Young says that young people deserve to be paid for the work that they do on internships, and if they do not, it is reprehensible. The wonderful Charlie Mullins, the founder of Pimlico Plumbers, a small business—which is not so small these days—says that it is completely reprehensible for companies to expect interns to work without pay. The ACCA has asked for an end to unpaid internships. RIBA expels members who use unpaid interns. UK Music says that interns should always be paid at least the national minimum wage. Lastly, the Times said in a recent editorial that the,

“abolition of unpaid internships is worthy and desirable”.

Under current national minimum wage law, an intern is entitled to pay only if they are working under a contract; of course, for a contract to exist it needs consideration. That means that if an intern receives nothing except expenses from their employer, the national minimum wage will not apply. The worst employers are exploiting this loophole and, under the law as it currently stands, there is little that can be done. The dice are loaded against those who cannot afford to take unpaid internships. The solution is not to discourage rich people from helping their children but to do a lot more to help clever kids who do not have wealthy parents.

[Baroness Neville-Rolfe]

My Lords, I thank the noble Baroness, Lady Donaghy, for raising this issue and giving us the opportunity to have a debate. She brings great knowledge and experience of all employment matters, notably as a former chair of ACAS and now from her work at the CIPD.

Internships can and do provide valuable opportunities for young people taking their first step in the labour market, and we wish to encourage them. Speaking for myself, last July I had the very happy experience of taking an intern from a modest social background here in the House of Lords, and over the years I took a good number of interns when I worked in retail, as part of sixth-form studies or college vocational assignments. I tried to take people who might not otherwise get a chance to come in and get work experience; that is a great thing that employers, and indeed the public sector, can do.

The term “internship” is of course a relatively new concept—and, I am afraid, like so much else, a bit of an Americanism. As has been said, there is no definition of internships in UK legislation. Individuals undertaking an internship may be workers, employees or volunteers, depending on the reality of the situation and not their job title or what an employer decides should be set out in a contract.

The flexibility of our labour market is a source of pride and there are currently more people in work than ever. In the past year alone the number of people in work rose by 512,000, so employment is now at a record 30.8 million, providing valuable opportunities to young people. Of this remarkable growth, eight out of 10 were employees and eight out of 10 were in full-time jobs. In a labour market as flexible as the UK’s, there are a multitude of possible employment relationships that suit the employer and the individual, and this has to include short-term placements, internships and work experience. There is no single test to determine whether a contract of employment exists and whether an individual is an employee. Only an employment tribunal can determine whether a contract of employment exists. I appreciate that sometimes this can be confusing and unhelpful. Last October, my right honourable friend the Secretary of State announced a review of employment status—rightly, I think—to ensure that these issues are considered. We hope that the review will conclude in March.

The noble Baroness’s amendment asks the Government to publish a report which would assess the growth of internships over the past five years, their incidence by sector, their average length and the subsequent career choices of interns. We are not convinced that it makes sense to write the requirement for a report into the Bill. Internship and work experience policy is a matter for the Government to consider as part of their normal work on employment policy. As I have said, we are looking at the issue in the context of a review of employment status, conscious of the need to preserve good practice in relation to work experience, where it exists.

I understand the concerns raised about pay and social mobility, and that some young people will not know about the opportunities or be able to find internships. I assure noble Lords that the Government are keen to work with employers and young people to ensure access to high-quality graduate opportunities and that is why we fund the Graduate Talent Pool service—which more people have probably heard of now, as a result of the Question in the House answered by my noble friend Lord Popat and because of the discussions on this Bill. The service is free to employers and graduates and provides information on all aspects of internships.

My noble friend Lord Storey asked about volunteers. Genuine volunteers who are not workers and who willingly give their time for free are exempt from the national minimum wage. The Government’s Social Mobility Business Compact seeks to influence business to remove barriers to social mobility and to promote open and fair access to opportunities. This is what the noble Lord, Lord Watson, and my noble friend Lord Storey seem to be seeking. There are a number of strands to this, including work experience and paid internship opportunities. We are involving education providers—schools, colleges and universities —so that they build up links with business and other employers, including charities, which is another important area.

There is an issue about the entitlement to the minimum wage and I should explain that an intern’s entitlement depends on their employment status. If the intern is an employee or a worker, they are entitled to at least the national minimum wage from day one, and all other rights attached to their employment status. If the intern is a volunteer, they are not entitled to the national minimum wage but can receive reasonable out-of-pocket expenses. This may be the only way that people can get work experience. I worry that regulation could be perverse in its effect, especially with small businesses which probably cannot afford the great schemes we have been talking about that are provided by the big accountancy and insurance companies and so on. It is quite a complex subject.

--- Later in debate ---

In conclusion, discussion of intern policy is an issue of the day, and will be taken forward in a number of forums now that the debate has been started and the numbers seem to be growing. It can be very valuable, and of course we need to ensure that the national minimum wage is observed. I hope that the noble Baroness has found my comments helpful and that she will agree to continue the discussion with me outside the Bill, but for the moment I ask her to withdraw her amendment.

[Lord Mitchell]

One word I did not hear—and I was listening very carefully—was “exploitation”. The feeling many of us have on this issue is that young people who are desperate to make sure that their CVs look good so that they can say that they have had the right experience are prepared to be exploited to make sure that their CV looks good. Many employers out there prey on them, and in many cases those situations where people are not paid can last for long periods of time. More than anything else, we want to address that.

[Baroness Neville-Rolfe]

I thank the noble Lord for that further clarification. There is a lot of common ground here. We need to address certain issues and, clearly, we are all keen to stamp out exploitation.