Smoke and Carbon Monoxide Alarm (England) Regulations 2015

Lord Marlesford Excerpts

Monday 14th September 2015 Lords Chamber

[Lord Marlesford (Con)]

My Lords, in speaking to this statutory instrument, I first declare an interest in that I have residential properties which are let in the village that I live in in Suffolk, and the regulations will apply to them. That is in the Register of Lords’ Interests.

I got involved in this last Monday, when I suddenly realised, because I was told, that this statutory instrument was to be brought into full force on 1 October this year. I heard about it because the Government had issued a guidance note on how it would all work on 4 September, the Friday before, which was three weeks before the regulations were due to come into force. In a question and answer section, the guidance note states:

“Is there a ‘grace’ period for landlords?”

The reply is:

“If the regulations are approved, landlords are expected to be compliant from 1 October 2015 when the regulations will come into force. There will be no grace period after this date to install the required alarms”.

That is a pretty extraordinary statement considering that it was made such a short time before the regulations come into force.

My noble friend has made a lot of how everybody knew about the regulations, saying that there has been a great deal of publicity. My humble queries last Monday have produced a huge response. The British Property Federation points out that the regulations cover 4.4 million properties, but landlords are being asked to implement them in three weeks. Quite out of the blue, I received an email dated 9 September from British Gas in response to the Minister’s point about the effectiveness of the Government’s consultation. It states that,

“these Regulations are intended to come into force on the 1st October, without a grace period and with immediate effect. At British Gas, we are concerned that levels of awareness of the new regulations are currently very low, and that landlords may continue to unwittingly put their tenants’ lives at risk by not being aware of the new legislation … We recently conducted research with nearly 1,000 landlords in England through our long-term partnership with the housing charity Shelter, and found that 59% of landlords are not aware that these Regulations are due to come into force on the 1st October”.

That is pretty good evidence. As a result, there have been many applications to delay not necessarily bringing the order into force, but when it has to be complied with.

I say straight away—probably no one in the House would disagree—that we all think that the regulations are very sensible. They are needed. They should apply to all let properties—and probably, eventually, all owner-occupied properties as well. The intention is perfectly sound. I am complaining about the astonishing level of bad government in the way in which this has been put forward. It is very bad administration: Whitehall at its worst.

After I had made my comments on Monday, my noble friend very kindly invited me to see her in her department. I went with interest and expectation, but it was very unclear what the invitation was for, because she had nothing to tell me except that the Government intended to bring the regulations into force. What she said, interestingly—this was on Wednesday last week—was that she was going to lay the order that night in the Chamber. Actually, when I got back here, I found that that was not true and that the usual channels had attempted to inform her of that, but the message had not got through. That is another example which raises pretty good questions about the administration of her department—no fault of hers; I acquit her completely of that.

Then the decision was made to lay the order today. Interestingly, there was suddenly an ad hoc committee in the House of Commons, which met at 4.30 this afternoon to consider the regulations—an ad hoc committee, not a standing committee. I went along. It was very interesting. It did not take very long; the whole thing was dealt with in seven minutes, four minutes of which was taken by my honourable friend Mr Brandon Lewis, the housing Minister. I should say that Mr Lewis was kind enough to ring me over the weekend to say that he understood that I had a problem with the regulations, so I explained in some detail what it was. He undertook to consider it, which I thought was rather encouraging. Perhaps one should never be encouraged by undertakings. Anyway, he put the order forward. The opposition spokesperson got up and said how important the regulations are, as I have just done, and how sad it was that so many people die from carbon monoxide poisoning. There was not a squeak from anyone else. Immediately, the question was put, up everybody jumped up and off they went. That was the procedure in the House of Commons.

One of our functions in this House is to see that government is properly carried out and that legislation is sound, properly thought through and brought through in such a way that it can be properly implemented. A number of questions have been raised about the regulations which I will not mention now, because it would take too long. All I say is that there is far from being happiness and agreement that the Government have run the thing properly.

I shall cite three different bodies. The British Property Federation states that the compliance date should be postponed until April 2016. The Association of Residential Letting Agents, responsible for 1.42 million properties, states:

“It is not possible to undertake this amount of work before the regulations come into force”,

and that,

“all existing tenancies should be allowed to have until 1st January 2016 to comply”.

It also raises the point, which seems to me sound, that to have to inspect on the day a new tenancy is formed is rather impractical. An organisation called Your Move said that the matter was so unclear that,

“We had mistakenly thought the legislation applied to new tenancies only”.

I may say that the CLA—of which I am a member, incidentally—thought the same, and has asked for it to apply to new tenancies from 1 October, but from 1 April 2016 for existing tenancies.

The way in which this has been handled is thoroughly unsatisfactory. It is not good government. This Government have a responsibility not just for working out the right policies but for doing so in a proper way. It is not being done in a proper way, and that is lamentable.

[Lord Crickhowell (Con)]

My Lords, I hate having to rise to criticise my Ministers on the Front Bench, particularly the noble Baroness who is to reply to this debate. She has a well-deserved reputation for being extremely knowledgeable, not least about local government, and for dealing very well with matters. However, she has not been at her best in handling this business.

My noble friend the Minister started very eloquently this time on the way that information had been given to the fire authorities and how apparently they have rushed round the country telling tenants what they should and should not do. In the last debate in Grand Committee, I took my brief from the Secondary Legislation Scrutiny Committee and asked a number of very specific questions about the points that that committee made. The Minister did not answer one of those questions. Indeed, she did not even refer to the fact that I had made a speech at all. I had become a sort of non-person. I would gently say to her that it is usually a mistake when one of your colleagues makes a speech not to at least acknowledge he has done so, even if you are unable to give convincing answers to the questions. I was reminded earlier this evening that Lord Whitelaw always used to brief new Ministers and say, “Even if you haven’t a clue what the answer is, refer to the speech they made and then most Members will be reasonably satisfied”.

Slightly by chance later in the proceedings, partly as the result of questions from the noble Lord, Lord Beecham, on the other Benches and someone else, we were told:

“We have decided to issue new guidance in the form of explanatory booklets, one for local authorities and one for landlords. We also want to update How to Rent”.—[Official Report, 7/9/15; col. GC 177.]

How to Rent was the first of four documents referred to by the Secondary Legislation Committee, all of which it said needed revision. The situation when we met last Monday on these regulations, which launched in March and which the department had the whole summer to deal with, was that the department was going to revise and issue guidance and all these things. We are now told that it has been informing the fire brigade, which has been rushing round telling everyone, although my noble friend Lord Marlesford suggested that that was less than entirely accurate. It does not seem that we are getting on quite as we should or that this is the way to proceed. In the course of my speech, when I was told that key stakeholders had been informed, my noble friend the Minister said:

“A key stakeholder is someone who has a stake or interest in the regulation or legislation at hand”.—[Official Report, 7/9/15; col. GC 176.]

I am not sure that that took us much further forward.

I came into the House earlier today and picked up a document I had not read before. I am not sure whether it was on the table in the Grand Committee when I came in last Monday. It is the second report of the 2015-16 Session of the Joint Committee on Statutory Instruments. In her very brief introductory speech last time, my noble friend made a reference to one of the reports of that important committee. She said that the Government would follow the recommendation that a review clause should be added to the policy. A commitment was given that a review clause would be introduced in due course. However, that was only one of five committee reports outlined in paragraphs 6.1 to 6.11 of the Joint Committee document, covering nearly three pages, which identified,

“doubtful vires, defective drafting and unexpectedly limited use of powers”.

None of those points has been dealt with at all by the Government. We come here this evening and that very important Joint Committee has not even been mentioned by the Government, except on one point. That does not seem an acceptable way to do business.

--- Later in debate ---

[Baroness Williams of Trafford]

My Lords, that is the information we have. I can ask them to clarify how they thought that 8 million people had received this information and write to the noble Lord, Lord Hunt, and other noble Lords who are taking part in the debate. I would not want information to be incorrect, but it is the information that I have.

[Lord Marlesford]

If my noble friend believes that the British Property Federation is so happy, why on 11 September did it say that it is necessary to put back the compliance date—not necessarily the date of bringing this into force, but the compliance date—until April 2016? It is a big outfit and it is pointing out that 4.4 million properties are involved.

[Baroness Williams of Trafford]

My Lords, I take my noble friend’s point. There have been other concerns about the timing, but as I laid out in my opening speech and as I will explain in my responses to noble Lords this evening, this is the right thing to do at this time.

My noble friend Lord Crickhowell talked about rogue landlords and my description of rogue landlords. These regulations are intended to target those very few landlords who do not have a concern for tenants’ safety or security.