Animal Welfare (Sentience) Bill [HL]

Lord Marland Excerpts

Committee stage
Tuesday 6th July 2021 Grand Committee

[The Deputy Chairman of Committees (Baroness Barker) (LD)]

My Lords, I have received requests to speak after the Minister from five noble Lords. First, I call the noble Lord, Lord Marland.

[Lord Marland (Con) [V]]

My Lords, I am very grateful to the Committee for allowing me to speak, and to the Minister. I attended all of Second Reading but did not choose to speak; I am very grateful to be allowed to now.

I do not envy my noble friend the Minister taking this Bill through the Lords. Clearly, it has united all sides in condemnation of the make-up, extent and cost of the committee and led to questions of whether it is a quango or a regulator committee. To date, he has not allayed our fears on that. I should be grateful if he would let us know when he intends to do so, as he alluded to in his remarks.

He also mentioned that funding will be out of the existing Defra budget. Is that an increased budget? That does not tell us whether the budget will be increased to fulfil this funding, and he has not conceded any information on that.

I am struck and concerned by his statement that the United Kingdom is the most highly regulated country in the world in this area. We are a nation of animal lovers and we have traditionally treated our animals extremely humanely, but this obsession with overregulation and making us the most regulated in the world must be a terrible threat to our farming community as it struggles against the continual burden of regulation put on it.

Therefore, my noble friends who have raised these questions are quite right to challenge the Minister on the make-up of the committee. At what point do we stop imposing regulation on our farming community? Many will have heard the outcry from the farming community after the Australian trade deal, complaining that Australia is less regulated than our community. It makes it impossible for our farmers to export if they are not on, as they call it, a level playing field. I further amplify the comments of my noble friend Lord Hamilton of Epsom, who rightly said that this is gold-plating the European Union’s welfare arrangements. Again, at what point do we cease to gold-plate products of something that the majority of the country decided to leave: the European Union?

As I said, I do not envy the Minister for taking on the Bill. He is a farmer himself, and a countryman to boot, but I fear that, unless strong terms of reference are imposed on the committee, we will end up destroying our countryside pursuits and making life virtually impossible for our farming and fishing community in future. I hope that, as the Bill makes its passage, he will be able to assure us—rather more, I am afraid, than he has today. I am happy to meet him afterwards to discuss it, or to receive a letter from him, if he so wishes.

I am grateful to the Minister and the Committee for allowing me to speak in this break.

[The Deputy Chairman of Committees (Baroness Barker) (LD)]

On that point, I just point out to Members of the Committee that speeches after the Minister are primarily for points of elucidation.

--- Later in debate ---

[The Deputy Chairman of Committees (Lord Russell of Liverpool) (CB)]

I have received two requests to speak after the Minister: from the noble Lord, Lord Marland, and the noble Baroness, Lady Mallalieu, so I call the noble Lord, Lord Marland.

[Lord Marland (Con) [V]]

I am very grateful to noble Lords for letting me speak again, as I want to press the Minister further. Having taken on board this very strong opinion from all parties that the committee should come under scrutiny and there should be a much more detailed plan as to its make-up and how it will operate, what is the timetable for the Minister and his department to explain this to us to allay our fears? We would all love to help him, of course; he might not want that, but we would all love to help him structure this properly. Has he thought of taking time out to discuss it with us as a group to make sure that it is done properly?

[Lord Benyon (Con)]

An overused phrase in corporate-speak and in government is that my door is always open, but in this case it is true. I am always open to suggestions. If we can be more explicit on Report, I hope that will satisfy my noble friend and others. In saying that, I hope that it is not an invitation to be too prescriptive, because I am determined that the committee will evolve over the years to reflect issues that arise and emerging scientific evidence. Therefore, too much constraint will not receive a favourable response from me—but constructive ideas as to the sort of people who could be on the committee are definitely what we want to hear.

Animal Welfare (Sentience) Bill [HL]

Lord Marland Excerpts

Report stage & Lords Hansard - part two
Monday 6th December 2021 Lords Chamber

Moved by

[Lord Marland]

2: Clause 1, page 1, line 4, at end insert—
“(1A) The function of the Committee is to determine whether, in the process of formulating policy, it is satisfied the Government is having, or has had, all due regard to the ways in which the policy might have an adverse effect on the welfare of animals as sentient beings.(1B) It is not the function of the Committee to comment on the policy decisions of Ministers or to recommend future policy or changes to existing policy.(1C) It is for Ministers to take into account any other considerations of public interest, including economic, cultural and religious considerations, as well as the impact on different species, in the formulation and implementation of any policy. (1D) Schedule (Animal Sentience Committee) has effect.”Member’s explanatory statement
This would clarify the Committee’s role and make clear the Committee is limited to commenting on process. It also makes explicit that Ministers should take into account any other public interest considerations. It gives effect to the Schedule, which sets out the Committee’s role and function.

[Lord Marland (Con)]

My Lords, I shall speak to the amendments tabled in the name of my noble friend Lord Mancroft, who, sadly, has fallen to the Covid virus, and we of course wish him well. It falls to me to take on the challenge of trying to persuade the Government, who so far have been pretty unpersuadable, to take this Bill more seriously and put it into better shape. For the record, I do not consider myself, as the noble Baroness, Lady Jones of Moulsecoomb, suggested, a right-wing Tory, even though some of my colleagues do. This has nothing to do with right or left. I think that the general feeling in the House was that this is a badly constructed Bill. I know that some of the government amendments have the support of the Liberal Democrats and Labour, which means that it is not a well-supported Bill.

For those who have just joined this debate, I say the following: I do not farm, and I rarely fish. I am not an industrial fisherman or commercial farmer; occasionally I shoot—but what I really enjoy is our green and pleasant land, and living in the countryside. As far as I am concerned, it has been under responsible stewardship for a very long time, or it would not still be a green and pleasant land. If I am a Tory, which I am, I believe the well-known Conservative Party tenet that people do better when the Government do least. Here we have a Bill that seeks to interfere with people and how they run their lives. It is not just this Bill on its own, in isolation; we should look at the general onslaught of change that is happening to farmers in the countryside.

How do we arrive at this place? It is extraordinary. I may be totally wrong, but I can count four animal welfare-related Bills, three of which come under a new umbrella of animal welfare created by Defra. Ministers say that they want experts to advise them on sentience, but they are getting loads of advice. They could just come to the noble Lord, Lord Trees, and get terrific advice from him, or the noble Baroness, Lady Deech, and get fantastic advice from her, because they are well-known experts. It is why they have been appointed to this House—among many other reasons, I hastily add. It just demonstrates another way of Defra interfering with farming, the countryside and fishing. It is setting down standards and definitions of standards that many other countries do not support. Not even the European Union has gone this far in setting out standards, insisting that our farmers and fishermen adhere to a certain group of standards.

Yet on the other hand, the Government are signing trade deals with these countries and allowing imports of various goods from countries that will not adhere to the same welfare sentiments that we do. We will still get lobsters from Canada—we will be able to get lobsters from Scotland, by the way, as this relates to the United Kingdom. We will still be able to get octopus from Spain not killed in the same way as we think it should be. We will get langoustines from Scotland and France killed totally differently than the ones that we have—and prawns, as we know, come from Thailand and other countries like that.

There is no civilised way of killing animals, or anybody, for that matter—whether it is slitting their throat, catching them in nets and leaving them out of air on fishing boats, hooking them and shooting them, stunning them or boiling them. They are all terrible ways to die. We should bear in mind that that is the case. Yet Defra is going to appoint a committee that sits as judge and jury on how these animals and sentient beings should be killed—in the animals’ case, but also it will give the description of sentient beings. This will destroy the livelihoods of our fishing industry, which will not be able to compete on the same level field, and it will make farming very difficult.

--- Later in debate ---

[Lord Benyon (Con)]

With respect to my noble friend, no. As long as the Minister has set out that, “We have received this report and here is our response; we hear what you say but there are wider cultural and religious factors that I have to consider in taking my decision”, that will be absolutely within the terms of this legislation and will not be able to be successfully judicially reviewed.

[Lord Marland (Con)]

My Lords, I thank those who have spoken so eloquently, including those who have supported my amendments.

The Government really are in a mess on this subject. They cannot defend the reason for the committee. They do not know who is actually running these decisions—whether it is Ministers or the Government. Most people, once torpedoed beneath the bows by the very eloquent and eminent noble and learned Lord, Lord Etherton, would have given up and said yes, especially when followed by my noble friend Lord Howard, who underlined the terrible mess that the Government are in. The very fact that Defra has defended itself from legal disputes shows us the onslaught that is going to happen. If that were not enough, the noble Baroness, Lady Mallalieu, made a brilliant intervention showing that committees are already in place to help them.

We on our Benches want to help the Government, not to hinder them—we want to make this better for them. But I fear they have lit a long fuse that is going to explode in our faces in five to 10 years’ time, and there will be nothing that we can do about it. It will traipse through the courts, there will be no defence to it and all the warnings that we have given will have been to no avail.

I am a loyal member of our party, so I am not going to invite the opinion of the House, but I sense that there is a strength of opinion in support of the amendment from the noble Baroness, Lady Deech, so I would certainly not want to interfere on any decision that she might make on her amendments—but I hereby withdraw my amendment.

Amendment 2 withdrawn.