Terminally Ill Adults (End of Life) Bill

Debate between Lord Markham and Baroness Finlay of Llandaff

Committee stage
Friday 6th February 2026 Lords Chamber

[Lord Markham (Con)]

If I may say—I hope, like my noble friend, in the spirit of helpfulness—this has been a thoughtful debate, and we all want the best decision-making framework for these decisions. I am definitely not going to pretend that I have personal expertise as to what the best decision-making framework is. However, on some of the earlier comments, Professor Chris Whitty is our Chief Medical Officer and, although he might not be an expert in psychiatry, he draws on the expertise of the many experts in that field. A number of psychiatrists wrote in to MPs and Lords as part of this process, saying that they felt the Mental Capacity Act was a good, tried and tested framework to be used on this basis, and that there are certain dangers in trying to introduce an as yet new and unknown framework.

There is also the possibility of confusing situations. There could be three patients: one with a do not resuscitate order, another with motor neurone disease and the question of whether their ventilator should be switched off, and a third being assessed under assisted dying. These are quite similar circumstances. If you were to have two different frameworks for assessing them then there is the possibility of quite a lot of confusion as to the best way to do that. I say this to ensure we are looking at all the pros and cons. I am not going to pretend at all to be an expert on this, but the Mental Capacity Act has been tried and tested for a number of years, and there are a number of expert psychiatrists who think it is absolutely the right framework in which to do this.

[Baroness Finlay of Llandaff (CB)]

I wonder whether the noble Lord, in reading the Mental Capacity Act and Amendment 115, has recognised that the wording in Amendment 115 is deliberately taken from the Mental Capacity Act in order not to create confusion and the difficult situation he is alluding to, which could have happened if somebody was trying to construct an assessment framework out of the blue.

[Lord Markham (Con)]

Where that clarity can exist then that clearly must be the right thing, but my understanding of the many amendments that have been tabled is that a lot of them seek to replace the Mental Capacity Act with a new decision-making process, which, inevitably, is not tried and tested and so could be confusing. I reiterate that I am not an expert in this—

Terminally Ill Adults (End of Life) Bill

Debate between Lord Markham and Baroness Finlay of Llandaff

Committee stage
Friday 23rd January 2026 Lords Chamber

[Lord Markham (Con)]

In the spirit of helpfulness on public opinion and whether people understand the question, there are numerous surveys on this. A very clear one has the wording “Do you think doctors should be allowed to end the life of a terminally ill patient at their request?”, which was supported by 75% of 18 to 34 year-olds, 80% of 35 to 64 year-olds and 78% of those aged 65-plus. I do not think you could get a question clearer than that, or a level of public support greater than that.

[Baroness Finlay of Llandaff (CB)]

I am grateful to the noble Lord for his intervention, but I think we need to stay focused on the amendments in this group and not get diverted. That is what I am trying to do.

In terms of palliative care provision, I am extremely worried that the amendments put down to the amendments tabled by the noble Lord, Lord Birt, had to be limited because palliative care is repeatedly being deemed out of scope of the Bill. That is a major problem. We hear about bad deaths, but we know that actually, if clinicians act with urgency and have a 24 or 48-hour limit before they call for specialist palliative care intervention—so there is rapid intervention, with highly specialised knowledge—all of the outcome measures show an improvement, using things such as the IPOS scale and so on. Family reported outcomes can also improve. To view bad deaths as something that we should just leave and tolerate, and to say the only solution is the proposal in these amendments, does not recognise the reality of the services that are available already.

In introducing his amendments, the noble Lord quoted extensively from Australia and painted it as everything being perfect. I would like to briefly counter that by quoting the honourable Robert Clark, who was Victoria’s Attorney-General from 2010 to 2014. He has written about the Australian experience of assisted suicide. He describes a change in “attitudes”, with the “ethos” of the medical profession moving away from the practitioner’s primary duty to solve the problems the patient has, and a grave risk that this will lead over time to doctors forming views that a patient ought to be opting for assisted suicide and becoming inclined to regard that patients should go down that road.

He also highlights that there are things going wrong. I will not detain the Committee because of time, but I think there are alternatives. He points out that there are some doctors who, when they have resisted going along with a request for an assisted death, have found their whole careers eventually becoming somewhat blighted. Although there is a clause in the Bill which tries to avoid that, there is concern that that clause is incomplete. So, when we quote international evidence, we also have to be quite balanced in it.

The proposal in the amendments from the noble Lord, Lord Mackinlay, do us a favour, because they demonstrate that this cannot be part of the NHS as it is at the moment. It begins to move us towards viewing some kind of proposal like this being completely outside NHS services but not planted in the NHS. Then, of course, the funding question arises. If funding erodes palliative care funding, which has happened in other places, we really have a problem, because recent evidence to the Public Accounts Committee showed that, if you have specialist palliative care in place and available, as it ought to be, the savings to the country would be about £800 million a year.

--- Later in debate ---

[Baroness Finlay of Llandaff (CB)]

My Lords, the noble Baroness has prompted me to return to the point made by my noble friend Lady Cass, because the chance of being right about six months has been estimated at around 48%. It is just plucked out of the air. It depends on the individual, how their body responds to whatever disease it is and lots of other factors. I was concerned when the noble Lord, Lord Markham, said that these are people who want to live. They should be having access to specialist palliative care to maintain their quality of life as high as possible, yet we have huge gaps in this country.

[Lord Markham (Con)]

I was making the point that those people—I am looking at some in that category in this very Room, I believe—want to live for the rest of their natural life for as long as possible. That is what they really want. They desperately do not want to be diagnosed with a terminal illness.

[Baroness Finlay of Llandaff (CB)]

I have looked after thousands and thousands of patients, and I have to say that I have never come across someone who said they wanted to be terminally ill and to have their metastases or whatever. No, people want to live well but accept that death is a natural part of life. That is quite different from talking about deciding that someone is going to be given lethal drugs to foreshorten their life.

The benefit of the amendments proposed by the noble Baroness, Lady Berger, is that they fit fair and square with the Title of the Bill, which is about terminally ill adults, and make it clear that this is about terminal illness and cannot be masqueraded as anything else. Yes, there will be multiple factors, because of course someone who is already seriously ill but is content with their life will not seek assisted suicide—that goes without saying. However, we also need to be clear about differentiating medication, which is where we give a substance with the intention of achieving an improvement to the person’s well-being, from the large cocktail of lethal drugs that we debated previously, and I am not going to revisit that.

I have a concern when we label all these patients as having pain and suffering. Evidence from other countries is that pain and suffering are not the prime reason why people are going for this. I see the noble Baroness, Lady Jay, nodding, and I remember well from the Select Committee that we were on that we heard repeatedly that there were multiple existential factors that made someone’s life have so little meaning and worth that they felt they wanted to go for assisted suicide. However, we have to put some boundaries around it, because literally thousands of people in this country feel exactly that—that their lives are of no worth—and they feel suicidal. As Professor Louis Appleby, the lead suicide prevention adviser to the Government, has said,

“I’m worried once you say some suicides are acceptable, some self-inflicted deaths are understandable and we actually provide the means to facilitate the self-inflicted death. That seems to me to be so far removed from what we currently do and from the principle that’s always guided us on despairing individuals, that it’s an enormous change with far-reaching implications”.

The amendments would provide a ring fence and some safety barriers. Sadly, there are literally thousands of people in society who are suicidal. We heard a lot about that in relation to young people and the algorithms on their phones that they get into with social media and so on. There are an awful lot of people who are profoundly depressed and a lot of people in poverty, and when they become ill that may take them down one further notch, and there are a lot of people who just feel unloved. We have to make sure that the Bill sticks to what it claims to do, which is to be about terminal illness.

Terminally Ill Adults (End of Life) Bill

Debate between Lord Markham and Baroness Finlay of Llandaff

Committee stage
Friday 12th December 2025 Lords Chamber

[Lord Markham (Con)]

May I just offer a different perspective on this? It has been an interesting debate. One of the main reasons I am supportive of assisted dying is kindness—kindness to the people who are scared about the inevitable end of their life and kindness in that they face a lot of pain. They see assisted dying as a way of relieving themselves from that pain.

In this debate, are we saying that people in prison are not deserving of that kindness? People in prison have been deprived of their liberty because of the crimes they committed, and that is the punishment that they have been given in the face of the law. That is the debt being paid to society. But are we saying at the same time that they do not deserve the same kindness that we would give to others and that they should face pain because they are in prison, whereas others should not? That is my perspective on this.

[Baroness Finlay of Llandaff (CB)]

My Lords, I put a question to the noble Lord who has just spoken. I am really concerned—