Sudden Adult Death Syndrome

Debate between Lord Mann and Anna Soubry

Monday 25th March 2013 Westminster Hall

[John Mann (Bassetlaw) (Lab)]

It is a pleasure to take part in this debate and I congratulate my hon. Friend the Member for Liverpool, Walton (Steve Rotheram) on the fine way that he introduced it. I pay tribute to the campaigners who have given Parliament an appropriate kick in the pants to ensure that this issue is debated with proper time. This is a great opportunity for us to look at what can be done and the best way to do it. I will be giving the Minister some proposals on how this can be taken forward that will not cost her any money—there are ways that Governments can spend money, but some suggestions are cost-neutral.

By a remarkable coincidence, in Bassetlaw we are about to launch a campaign. When we agreed to launch it, I did not know that this debate would take place. After we had set our campaign dates, I got some e-mails and twitters telling me about it—[Interruption.] Tweets, apparently. Anyway, I got them, read them and responded. There was a good bit of pressure, but we had already decided, because we have a campaign group that has been battling. People power has brought this debate here, and we had our own people power in our ambulance campaign in the east midlands, which was resolved today—the Minister will want to know this, because I doubt whether she had anyone in the meeting this morning, but I did.

In our area, we put forward the idea that, rather than have all our ambulance stations closed, going down to none, we should have them kept open and have three. We have won. All three are being kept open, as a result of people power. The number of fully crewed ambulances with qualified staff will remain as is, rather than being cut. I asked for six guarantees—I put it in writing—and got the formal answers on the record this morning. We won that campaign.

I offered the ambulance service a bit of a deal when I met it. Our group, the “Save Our Services” campaign, which just so happens to include Councillor Adele Mumby and Mr Gavin Briers, community first responders, and various others, has campaigned with me and the local council on this matter. I said, “Look, I’ve seen some figures that say Bassetlaw has a less than 2% survival rate. However, in Lincolnshire, it is apparently 11%. Hang on a minute. I don’t know who’s not been informing me about this, and I’ve not seen these figures before, but if our survival rate is under 2%, and Lincolnshire’s is 11%, something’s wrong.” When I looked into it, the community first responders were clear about what is needed: they said we need defibrillators everywhere in our community and we need training.

We have therefore agreed the Bassetlaw defibrillator campaign, which we are launching on 11 April. It will be an unusual campaign, compared with some. I have heard a lot of medical jargon, but we will not be using any of that, because I cannot follow it, and I am the MP. Many of my constituents will have more medical knowledge than me, but some will not be able to follow that jargon, so we will keep the campaign really simple. It is going to be like this. Every school will have to have a defibrillator; those that do not will get a visit from me to hold their governors to account. I do not care who funds this: the council, the county council or the school governors. The Lions are also raising money. What I do care about, though, is that the defibrillator is registered with the ambulance service, which can then do the training to make sure the defibrillator is properly used.

I have been to have a look at a defibrillator, and I was photographed trying one out. Like my hon. Friend the Member for Liverpool, Walton, I know how simple they are; us simple guys, we can get it. It is easy to use one, and I can do it. However, I want to make sure the systems are good, and I want people to think them through. That is important for the kids. When I was 11, a lad in my class at school died suddenly, so I am very aware of the problem. However, I also want to make sure the community can use these defibrillators, so we are not stopping just at schools, although if a school does not want to have a defibrillator, I will name and shame them. I am sure they all want one, and some have them already, but they should all want to participate fully.

To help, the Minister could have a word with the Secretary of State for Education, as others have said. I could suggest bits of the national curriculum that could be dropped. We could lose a king or queen who is long dead, and put in a bit about defibrillators. If the Minister or the Education Secretary wants to come up with other bits of the national curriculum we could lose, I do not mind, but they should get these issues on the curriculum, so that everyone in school learns about it. In areas such as mine, the children will then go back home and teach the old folk such as me—the grandparents and all the rest of them—the skills they have; they will tell them what to do. That knowledge will spread through the community like wildfire; that is what I want.

However, there is more than that. My neighbour, the hon. Member for Brigg and Goole (Andrew Percy), is well trained, and I am glad that he is, because I do not live too far from him. However, nursing homes are provided by the health service, county councils and others, and they are licensed by the CSQ—

[Anna Soubry]

The Care Quality Commission.

[John Mann]

The Minister knows them. She could have a word with these bodies and insist that homes have a defibrillator. What are they doing employing staff who have not been trained? We should insist they train them; we should make it part of the licensing process. It costs the Government nothing; it is also good business practice for the private homes and good public practice for the publicly run homes.

However, we can do more than that. The Retford, Gainsborough and Worksop Times has agreed to back and publicise the campaign, and it is going to do a sticker. Every building—say, a shop—that has a defibrillator will get good publicity. It will not need me to go there for a photograph to launch it, although I am available, if any shop wants me; they would regard that as good publicity. They can have the Minister if they really want. The sticker will tell people the defibrillator is in the shop. To me, that is a really obvious step.

However, I want more than that. We give a lot of money to sport. Another mate of mine got taken ill playing football. I pulled my hamstring, and he thought he had pulled his, but it was far worse. Luckily, we got him to hospital, because he had a heart attack just outside it. He lived, and he is perfectly fine now. However, that made me think, and it is part of the motive behind the campaign. Where are the defibrillators and trained people in all these community sports facilities? We give these facilities money. There is the Football Foundation, which my right hon. Friend the Member for Leigh (Andy Burnham) knows well. I think it spends £30 million a year. It should be built into the small print that people should get defibrillators when they get the money for their fancy new facilities. It does not matter whether it is public money, football money or lottery money. The Minister could be raising this issue with these bodies. The Government are also rightly putting money into school sports. We could use the leverage provided by money going into sport to say that defibrillators should be part of the deal. If we do that, we will get them without the Government having to put in lots of money; indeed, if they follow my suggestions, they will not have to put in any money.

I have two other suggestions that are also cost-free. On the planning system, people are always asking for planning permission. We have heard how the system can work against what we are trying to do, but, used sensibly, it can work for us. If someone wants to get planning permission to set up a new shop, a new factory or a new community centre, having a defibrillator should be built into the planning conditions; that is really simply, and it does not cost the state anything. Yes, it will take some time to make that happen, but we can establish the principle in council policy, and that is what we want to achieve with our campaign in Bassetlaw. People will retrofit. They will jump the gun.

Like me, the Minister is a good friend of the unions, and it would be great if the shop steward and the health and safety rep negotiated to ensure that every workplace with such a representative—it will tend to be the bigger workplaces—has a defibrillator. Indeed, it might be more than one if we are talking about some of the big workplaces in my area, which employ 1,000 to 2,000 people. There might be plenty of trained people throughout the work force who know what to do. That is an easy win; it is good publicity. Those suggestions are all cost-free for the Government.

[Mr Gary Streeter in the Chair]

I have a final suggestion. The Minister will like this, because it suits her area, just as it suits mine. I have about 80 parish councils in my area, and they are elected—well, allegedly, because there is never an election in most of them. However, through the democratic process, they are anointed as the village representatives. I shall contact them and go to those who are reticent. Every parish councillor should be trained up. Every parish, every village and every estate should know where the defibrillators are and publicise them so that everybody else knows.

If we get our act together, we can do something significant, without it costing the Government money. It is pure coincidence that Bassetlaw’s campaign is happening now. We waited until we had won our ambulance campaign. I did not want people going round saying, “You’re only doing this because you lost your ambulance stations.” No, the proposals are additional to the professional staff at the ambulance stations and all their brilliance. Now that my area has won its ambulance station campaign, we can deal with our defibrillator campaign properly and efficiently. We will name and shame.

I invite the Minister to come up to be photographed with a business or a parish council, or with councillors and county councillors who have donated a bit of money to assist the process. She can be photographed with me and them; it will be a great photo. However, I hope she will take these proposals forward, which are cost-neutral to the Government, and use leverage to get them moving.

East Midlands Ambulance Service

Debate between Lord Mann and Anna Soubry

Monday 21st January 2013 Commons Chamber

[Anna Soubry]

That is a very good point. My hon. Friend has summed it up—we are having an outbreak of cross-party unity. As he says, the key point is the positioning of the hub. One of the attractions of the hub approach is that the mechanics would be in place to ensure that the vehicles were ready at the beginning of a shift. At the moment, paramedics are responsible for that, which does not seem to be a very good use of their time. There is therefore much merit in establishing 27 hubs in the right areas to ensure that we have a service that is fit for purpose.

There is something else that needs to be, not so much explored, perhaps, as exposed. The hon. Member for Bassetlaw has quite properly commented on the difficulty of having targets, and I could not agree with him more. This debate is a good example of where top-down, Government-led targets have blighted an ambulance service—no doubt there are many other examples in the NHS. That is why, when this Government were elected, for many of us it was on the basis that these targets, far from freeing up services and making them better, were strangling them and making them worse. This debate is an example of targets doing all the things they were designed not to do, constricting a service and making it worse. It is worth bearing it in mind that it was in 1997, I believe, that the ambulance service suffered from such targets. I hope that there will be more cross-party agreement and moving forward, so that although there are laudable aims that all services should have, we should not necessarily set rigid targets, which then create exactly the sort of horribly sad cases that the hon. Gentleman told us about.

[John Mann]

Is the Minister saying that she is going to get rid of them?

[Anna Soubry]

No, the Minister is not saying that she is going to get rid of them; what I am saying is that I take the view—as the hon. Gentleman does—that targets are not particularly improving services. I think there is a case for re-examining targets, and I hope he would join me in saying to the ambulance service, “Let’s look again at these targets in the NHS to see whether they’re doing the job we want them to do,” because it is precisely because of these targets that elderly people in my constituency have been lying on floors for up to four hours while ambulances have to go to meet a target.

--- Later in debate ---

[Anna Soubry]

My hon. Friend’s intervention raises a point that I hope I can help him with. There is absolutely nothing to prevent an ambulance in Daventry from going to whichever hospital offers the best treatment for that particular patient. Exactly the same applies in Bassetlaw. Under the new rule, there will be nothing to prevent a patient from going to Doncaster royal infirmary, or up to Sheffield, or indeed down to the Queen’s medical centre in Nottingham. The changes will not affect the ultimate decision of which is the best hospital for that particular patient—[Interruption.] The hon. Member for Bassetlaw is chuntering at me. Does he wish to intervene on me?

[John Mann]

I was saying that we need the ambulance to be there in the first place in order for it to take people to those hospitals. That is the whole point.

[Anna Soubry]

With great respect to the hon. Gentleman, he misses the more important and indeed more valid point that just because there is an ambulance station in a particular town or village, that does not mean to say that there is always an ambulance sitting there waiting to serve that town or village. What is important is—