Crown Estate Bill [HL]

Lord Macpherson of Earl's Court Excerpts

Committee stage
Monday 14th October 2024 Lords Chamber

[Lord Macpherson of Earl’s Court (CB)]

My Lords, unusually, as a former Treasury official, I am generally in favour of greater devolution—the more so when the likes of the noble Lords, Lord Hain and Lord Wigley, and my noble and learned friend Lord Thomas support a proposal. But on this occasion I fear I should advocate a degree of caution.

I speak having been in the Treasury when the Crown Estate in Scotland was devolved. With hindsight, I think that was a mistake, particularly because there is considerable benefit in looking at offshore wind policy at a UK level. Indeed, the then Government missed a trick. They should have followed the example of I think the Wilson Government in the 1960s, who hived off oil sea exploration from the Crown Estate. The then coalition Government should have hived off offshore wind from the Crown Estate, not least because it gives the Royal Family, who no doubt are a deserving cause, a massive windfall, as my noble friend Lord Turnbull pointed out at Second Reading.

Although I very much understand the case that noble Lords have made on both sides of the House, I think this is something that should not be rushed. There may be a case for devolving further powers to Wales, not least because there is a case for giving Wales similar treatment to Scotland. But if the Government are sympathetic to this amendment, I encourage them to spend a bit more time working through whether there are unintended consequences and, in particular, looking through the financial implications. One thing I would not want to see happen is Wales being disadvantaged financially by devolution. This might be the right thing to do for the longer term, but I encourage the Minister to think twice before agreeing to it today.

[Baroness Humphreys (LD)]

My Lords, I apologise to your Lordships for not having taken part in the Second Reading debate. I also draw your Lordships’ attention to my registered interests and my membership of the board of Community and Voluntary Support Conwy, CVSC.

I rise to speak to Amendment 26 in my name and Amendments 1, 21 and 23 in the names of the noble Lord, Lord Wigley, and the noble Baroness, Lady Smith of Llanfaes. My Amendment 26 calls for the devolution of the Crown Estate’s powers to Wales and would require the Treasury to devolve Welsh functions of the Crown Estate commissioners to Welsh Ministers or a person nominated by Welsh Ministers.

There are increasing calls within Wales for the devolution of these powers. It is a policy of my party, the Welsh Liberal Democrats, having been debated and agreed in our Welsh conference in 2023. It would ensure that the profit from offshore energy lease agreements stays in Wales.

In July 2023, Senedd Members voted by a majority of 35 to 13 in favour of a Plaid Cymru debate calling for the devolution of the Crown Estate to the Welsh Government. As we have heard, there are similar calls at local government level. Last week, as the noble Lord, Lord Wigley, detailed, councillors in Gwynedd Council debated a motion asking their chief executive to open negotiations with the Crown Estate over “access fees”. The council paid its annual fee of £161,000 to the Crown Estate in 2023 to allow public access to beaches in Gwynedd, of which £144,000 was paid to allow access to Hafan Pwllheli marina. Councillors also believed that responsibility for the Crown Estate should be devolved to the Welsh Government, with their motion stating:

“Any profits generated by the Crown Estate, here on Welsh lands and waters, should remain in Wales, for the benefit of our residents and communities”.


In addition to all this, social media videos provide information about the Crown Estate and explain why the promoters want change, leading to greater awareness of the issue among the public.

The Crown Estate owns land estimated to be worth more than £600 million in Wales. This includes 65% of the coast of Wales and 300,000 acres of land, including any gold and silver on it. Profits on these numbers are unclear, however.

Let me be clear: there is no criticism of the Crown Estate commissioners implicit in this amendment. The commissioners operate within a system that was established 63 years ago but with a history going back to 1760, and they cannot diverge from the status quo without an Act of Parliament similar to that which devolved similar powers to Scotland in 2017. So, while the commissioners operate the system from the 1960s, history for us in Wales has moved on. Devolution has opened the eyes of the people in Wales to the opportunities and responsibilities that the new order has brought.

--- Later in debate ---

As I am sure other noble Lords are, I am keen to find common ground and a way forward on the issues in this group of amendments. My humble opinion is that the publication of these documents, and some words of reassurance from the Dispatch Box, would be helpful in this regard. I look forward to the debate on these measures and to the Minister’s response to my amendment and the others in this group. I beg to move.

[Lord Macpherson of Earl’s Court (CB)]

My Lords, this is an interesting and important amendment that goes to the heart of Treasury control. Historically, it is fair to say that, when it came to nationalised industries, the Treasury set external finance limits that were not subject to constraints ex ante from Parliament. The proposal to borrow is definitely the right one. I recall having to jump through extraordinary hoops to enable the Crown Estate to invest in creating special purpose vehicles, usually with foreign sovereign wealth funds, to support the financing of investment. So moving to give the Crown Estate borrowing powers is the right approach.

The question then is: to what extent do those need to be constrained by Parliament? There are precedents. For example, Scotland is constrained in the quantity of its borrowing. However, the Crown Estate has more in common with nationalised industries. I hope that the Minister will confirm that in each Budget and spending review, the Treasury will publish three-year to five-year plans for the external financing limit of the Crown Estate. This will allow Parliament to scrutinise those proposals along with the rest of the Budget but should not require overarching constraint in legislation, which would effectively constrain the Treasury’s decisions on who should borrow across government and how best to allocate borrowing resources.

[Lord Howard of Rising (Con)]

My Lords, I rise to speak to Amendment 8. There should be a limit on the level of borrowings that the Crown Estate can have. It would be irresponsible to issue a blank cheque that risks, even encourages, abuse by the political system. At Second Reading, I suggested that a limit could be set as a percentage of capital reserves, and I proposed 10% as an appropriate amount. When added to the Crown Estate’s cash position, 10% would retain a generous amount of flexibility while guarding against the risk of abuse and overborrowing. Amendment 8 does just this. I thank the Minister for seeing me to discuss my amendment, but regret that he did not agree with the principle that a limit on borrowing is necessary. He believes that the approval needed by His Majesty’s Treasury would act as a sufficient safeguard. There are two important reasons why I believe that this is not the case.

First, relying on the good intentions of His Majesty’s Treasury to provide the necessary safeguards is simply insufficient. The First Lord of the Treasury is the Prime Minister. There is also the Chancellor of the Exchequer, who could, if the political ambition was sufficient, persuade His Majesty’s Treasury that a loan to the Crown Estate was desirable. The Minister said at Second Reading that he did not envisage the Crown Estate borrowing in the near future. However, there may be a less responsible Government in the future who may make use of this possible sleight of hand to encourage profligate or political spending.

Secondly, if a current or future Government wished to disguise spending, it is possible for the Crown Estate commissioners to carry out the desired spending for the Government with funds provided by the Treasury. Loans to the Crown Estate would be classed as an asset, meaning that the spending would be seen not as an expense but as a capital asset. Without restrictions on borrowing, there is an incentive for future less responsible Governments to increase lending to very high levels. A limit on the Crown Estate’s borrowing would go some way towards safeguarding against this. However, I also welcome Amendment 10, in the name of my noble friend Lady Vere of Norbiton, which provides another safeguard against this happening by ensuring that loans made to the Crown Estate are included in the Government’s assessment of the national debt.

I remain concerned about the lack of safeguarding against excessive borrowing, which poses a significant and unnecessary risk that the Crown Estate does not need to continue operating successfully. As we have heard, I am not the only member of this House who has concerns about permitting the Crown Estate limitless borrowings from His Majesty’s Treasury. Amendments 2 and 5, tabled by the noble Earl, Lord Russell, and Amendments 3, 4, 6 and 7, tabled by my noble friend Baroness Vere of Norbiton, all propose alternative limits to borrowing which would be quite acceptable. Should the Minister find these amendments too restrictive, Amendment 8 provides him with a generous alternative.

Finally, as the Minister has been made aware, I would like to degroup Amendment 9; as such, I will save my comments on it for the next group. I apologise for any inconvenience this may cause the House, but having reflected on the matter, I feel it important to deal with that amendment separately.