Local Government (Religious etc. Observances) Bill

Lord Mackay of Clashfern Excerpts

Friday 13th March 2015 Lords Chamber

[Lord Hughes of Woodside (Lab)]

I will not delay the Committee long. For all my life, I have been an avowed atheist. I have no problem with that or with religion. I have no problem with exclusion, except in a narrow sense. On a more trivial matter, one of the big problems in your Lordships’ House is that those of us who wait outside during Prayers cannot get a seat when we come in. One of my suggestions is that we should have a couple of Benches set aside for the atheists, so that we can get a proper seat.

However, on a more serious matter, exclusion takes many forms, sometimes thoughtlessly. It is sometimes deeply wounding. On the day of the Charlie Hebdo assassinations, I received a text message saying that there was to be a minute’s silence before the commencement of business. When I came into the Chamber after Prayers, I was shocked to discover that the minute’s silence had taken place before Prayers, thereby totally excluding people such as me who do not come in for Prayers. I was deeply upset by that, and still am. Those people who preach, from a religious point of view, that they are tolerant and always think of others might think again. Those of us who are atheists have feelings and share values about society.

[Lord Mackay of Clashfern (Con)]

My Lords, it is often the case that the power of religion is sought to be harnessed for a mistaken purpose. We have illustrations of that in our situation today. A particular movement tries to hang on to some religion as its base because it believes that by that method it will increase its power and influence. The proper course for the Bill is for it to proceed, on the basis that there should be a majority ruling in the council. I cannot see, for the life of me, why there should be a special majority giving particular value to those who do not want prayers over those who do. Surely, equality of votes is the right way in which to go forward.

I can speak from personal experience, although I should not say “of course”, because I happen to be a Christian and have sought to be one for a good part of my life. Our scriptures tell us that if anyone lacks wisdom, he should ask of God, and God will give him that wisdom. I do not support the Bill on the basis of tradition but strongly support it on the basis that prayer can have a profound effect in this respect: I have to say, even in relation to addressing your Lordships’ House, one has to think about getting help to remove lack of wisdom, which I am particularly conscious of, because we face many difficult problems in this House. Wisdom, such as is prayed for here at the beginning of every session, is a valuable commodity.

It is not so long ago, and I am old enough to remember, when this nation was faced with a terrific disaster when the British Expeditionary Force was trapped just outside Dunkirk. His Majesty King George VI called for the nation to engage in prayer. Whatever noble Lords think about the causal connection, there is no doubt that a wonderful deliverance was afforded to our troops in Dunkirk. The way that they were delivered was nothing short of miraculous. I therefore support this Bill, not because of any tradition or because it has been done before, but because I think councillors, by majority, are entitled to have this privilege if they wish it.

[Lord Kilclooney (CB)]

My Lords, in the most religious part of the United Kingdom, Northern Ireland, we have no established church. Here in England there is the established church, the Church of England. In his speech, the noble Lord, Lord Taverne, said that the Church of England is no longer the greatest church in England. I was looking recently at the wedding statistics in the United Kingdom. When it comes to religious weddings, 75% are still in the Church of England, 11% are in evangelical churches, 10% are in Roman Catholic churches, and 4% are in others. Clearly, although I am not a member of the Church of England, there is no doubt that it is still the choice of the majority of the religious people in England.