Digital Economy Bill

Lord Mackay of Clashfern Excerpts

Report: 2nd sitting (Hansard): House of Lords
Monday 20th March 2017 Lords Chamber

Twenty-four years ago, I was talking about concerns arising from violent videos. Technology and accessibility to media have changed dramatically over that time but human nature has not. The same principles of harm to children, adults and the wider society need to be weighed and confronted. It was this House that introduced the harm test in 1994 and it is this House that should now ask the Government to reflect further, which is precisely what my noble and learned friend’s amendment seeks to do.

[Lord Mackay of Clashfern (Con)]

My Lords, my name has been mentioned in connection with something that I said on this issue. I had understood that the Government’s reason for widening the scope of permissible pornography from prohibited material to exceptional pornography was to do with standing CPS guidance, which is supposed to be out of date. I said that it certainly does not require an Act of Parliament to bring prosecutorial directions up to date: if the judges have changed the rules, the prescription should be changed immediately. When I was told about this matter, I raised it with the Minister, from whom I understood that that was not the reason for this change, so my point about bringing the guidelines up to date does not really matter. There is a different reason for making this change, but I am not sure that I understand it and it will be for the Minister to explain it now. When he introduced these amendments, I did not understand him to say exactly what the reason was for wanting to make the change, but it is clear that there is a substantial change allowing pornography which is not permitted as prohibited material to be allowed now. I am not sure what the basis for that is and why it is being done.

I am extremely sorry that I have an appointment in connection with another Bill with which I am involved, so I will have to leave. However, as my name was mentioned, I thought that I should say exactly what my position is. I do not understand the justification for this change and it is for your Lordships to say whether it is justified.

[Baroness Kidron (CB)]

My Lords, I find myself very much in the same school as the right reverend Prelate in not understanding how we can justify a form of sexual violence by one group towards another. It is very upsetting. However, I want to raise a slightly different issue that I tried to raise in Committee. I suppose that it is covered by government Amendment 25B in that it refers to commercial providers. I keep feeling that we are missing the point here—missing the business model that is fuelling all this pornography. If the amendment were to refer to those who monetise pornography—that is, those who receive money from pornography—we could make a much cleaner sweep of this issue. I think that many noble Lords will have noticed this morning—

--- Later in debate ---

I do not think we have moved from an existing regime which has been around for a long time. We are where we are because we have accepted amendments all the way through the progress of the Bill. We have work to do but, to get child protection online, we hope noble Lords will consider supporting the government amendments in the meantime. I beg to move.

[Lord Mackay of Clashfern]

The noble Lord, Lord Paddick, said that the definition of prohibited material had become somewhat “suspect”—I think that was his word. Why is that? Is it a legal definition and why has it become suspect?

[Lord Ashton of Hyde]

It should not really be me answering that.

[Lord Mackay of Clashfern]

You accepted his way of putting it.

[Lord Ashton of Hyde]

The reason is that the CPS decides whether to prosecute on offences as it sees them. It has guidance, which has been around for some time. The fact is—and some noble Lords may not agree with this—that views have changed and the CPS does not always prosecute in line with its own guidance.