Health and Care Bill

Lord Lucas Excerpts

Committee stage
Wednesday 9th February 2022 Lords Chamber

[Lord Berkeley of Knighton (CB)]

My Lords, I always enjoy listening to the noble Lord, Lord Blencathra, because he has an absolutist way of delivering his ideas. But his ideas here have prompted other noble Lords to a very sensible suggestion that we need to look further at this.

We have to look at this question with great compassion —compassion for women who feel uncomfortable and compassion for women who are trans. We all know that, sometimes, people are born with mixed chromosomes. It is not black and white. It is a very complex issue. The suggestion of the noble Lord, Lord Hunt of Kings Heath—I see the noble Lord, Lord Blencathra, nodding —must be the right way forward. It needs to be looked at with great care and in great detail, by people who know what they are talking about.

[Lord Lucas (Con)]

My Lords, I very much agree with the noble Lord, Lord Hunt, and others. I was here for 20 years during the struggle for single-sex wards, and it was a notable achievement of the Benches opposite that they got there. I remember, in those long debates, getting a real understanding of the distress that women felt at being made to suffer in mixed-sex wards. I do not think it is right to destroy all that just in the cause of a small group of patients.

The rights of women need to be considered alongside those of trans people. Both matter, both are important, and we should not, as Stonewall has sought to do, bend the law to impossible interpretations and impose that covertly on the National Health Service. We should try openly to discuss this difficult issue and arrive at a compassionate solution that does our very best for all patients. I have faith that if the Minister promises that, we will get that.

[Baroness Barker (LD)]

My Lords, the noble Lord, Lord Hunt, used the important word “contention”—a contention that there is a tension between the rights of women and those of trans women. He and I disagree about that because I believe that they both deserve to be treated properly and respectfully. I believe that the Equality Act enables that to happen.

It is that Act which enables there to be single-sex provision. It is precisely because there are occasions and times when it is important for that to happen that we have to embody it in law, otherwise it could not exist. That is why under the Equality Act there is a specific statement that there should be safeguards in place, that there are special circumstances where treatment needs to be sex-specific, and that where it is assessed that a trans person should be put in an otherwise gendered ward, such departures are allowed but they need to be proportionate to achieving “a legitimate aim”. Like my noble friend Lady Brinton, I do not believe that making assumptions about a person because of the way they look is a legitimate aim.

I have listened carefully to all the speeches that have been made, and they have contained some very powerful contentions and assertions. What they have not contained is any evidence at all that this is a significant problem in the NHS. The amendments would cause a significant problem in the NHS—for all patients, not just trans patients, if one thinks through the implications of what has been written in them.

Day to day, NHS staff routinely have to deal with patients of all sorts, with all sorts of difficult problems, and as professionals they make judgments day in, day out about what is appropriate care. Unless and until there is significant evidence that backs up the assertions and contentions of the noble Baroness, Lady Nicholson, and the noble Lord, Lord Blencathra, I believe we should leave them with the guidance that has worked perfectly well up till now.

Health and Care Bill

Lord Lucas Excerpts

Lords Hansard - Part 2 & Report stage
Wednesday 16th March 2022 Lords Chamber

[Baroness Blower (Lab)]

My Lords, this is a key opportunity to do something really significant for the health of the nation, from the youngest to the oldest, and for all the groups we refer to as “excluded.” This is a key moment. If the Minister can respond positively to the questions put to him by the noble Lord, Lord Moynihan, he will be doing a very good job for the nation.

[Lord Lucas (Con)]

My Lords, I entirely support my noble friend Lord Moynihan when he asks for proper accountability. That is what drives the few examples of successful cross-departmental co-operation. One of the recent missed opportunities is Defra not picking up on aspects of the Glover report that deal with people getting out into the landscape. To make a difference to that, Defra has to care and it has to be brought to account, but there also has to be a good enough mechanism to ensure that if Defra does propose to do something, someone is going to fund it. That would certainly apply too to schools’ collaboration with local sports clubs. Parents up and down the land want that to happen. But how is that going to be afforded? How is that going to be made to happen? Who is holding the systems accountable? There has to be some system whereby accountability and interest flow through—as my noble friend said, ideally, to Parliament—to make that happen.

I have written to the Minister on perioperative care, which is another example. How does the NHS collaborate with all the other people who might provide the support required for effective perioperative care? They are not in the NHS; it does not work that way. You can have a system that just involves spending the money and ticking the box because that money has been spent; or you can have one with real accountability, in which people care whether you get the results and are measuring that, and who feed that through to someone with a central interest in things. So I am really going to listen to the Minister with great interest on this.

[Baroness Merron (Lab)]

My Lords, I want to thank the noble Lord, Lord Moynihan—along with the noble Baronesses, Lady Morris and Lady Grey-Thompson, and the noble Lord, Lord Addington—for bringing forward this important amendment. It does strike me as strange that the UK does not already have a national plan in place to promote sport, health and well-being. If we are to tackle the acute obesity crisis in this country, a joined-up, forward-looking strategy at a national level is necessary. From these Benches, we support this amendment wholeheartedly. It offers huge potential to tackle obesity, poor mental health and a sedentary lifestyle in a joined-up way that sees people as whole people with different pressures and needs, but with the intention of focusing on prevention. So, I hope the Minister will be able to respond positively tonight.