Business and Planning Bill

Lord Lucas Excerpts

2nd reading & 2nd reading (Hansard) & 2nd reading (Hansard): House of Lords
Monday 6th July 2020 Lords Chamber

[Lord Lucas (Con) [V]]

My Lords, the noble Baroness, Lady Thornhill, and many others have pointed out the importance of the relationship between district and county authorities when it comes to the highway. In the district of Eastbourne where I live, it will be the district council that bears the responsibility for our economic recovery in a town which is based on the hospitality industry. As my noble friend Lord Wei said, innovation and experimentation ought to be the order of the day. However, this crucially involves roads. They permeate a town and you cannot talk about the experience of visitors, let alone residents, without really focusing on what is going on with the roadways. As others have pointed out, this Bill involves the interface between the pavement and the roadway. If we have a café that is spilling on to the pavement, with pedestrians spilling over into the roadway, the district authority absolutely must have the power to set the standards of safety that will make sure that that safety can be delivered by procuring changes to what is happening in the roadway. This cannot wait on the county; this has to be something that the district council can do by its own motion, or least get the county to do in an expedited way rather than to the county’s own timescales.

As has again been suggested by others, I too hope that we will look at expanding the Bill. Where neighbouring premises, open spaces or car parks might be thrown into service in the cause of this Bill, they should not be neglected. We should also look at encouraging, particularly in a seasonal town like Eastbourne, pop-up experiences—things that are not intended to last into the winter.

Lastly, in reply to my noble friends Lord Cormack and Lord Balfe, I am enthusiastic about this way of conducting business. I think that we have seen some real improvements in the ways in which our colleagues are now better embedded in the communities they are a part of, both in working and in living, and I have seen that being reflected in the debate today. I understand that we need to see some improvements to the systems we have at the moment, but given a bit of determination and good will, they seem to be entirely without our capabilities. I for one am in no hurry to get back to the business of commuting to Westminster with all the disconnection that that generates.

Business and Planning Bill

Lord Lucas Excerpts

Committee stage & Committee: 1st sitting (Hansard) & Committee: 1st sitting (Hansard): House of Lords
Monday 13th July 2020 Lords Chamber

I look forward to hearing the comments from other noble Lords on this group. I also look forward to the Minister’s responses to ensure that we move from “guidance”, “may” and “consider” to something that can give real confidence to not just disabled people but all people. This would be an effective, positive move to drive economic activity, but in a way that is inclusive for all.

[Lord Lucas (Con) [V]]

My Lords, what I want to say on my Amendment 4 will work very well with what I want to say on Amendment 24, when we come to it. If the Minister chooses to reply to Amendment 4 now, that is fine, but I will leave my remarks until later.

--- Later in debate ---

[Lord Lucas [V]]

My Lords, Amendments 22 and 23 are intended to offer the Government an opportunity to outline how a district authority can take full advantage of this Bill when the highways are controlled by a county authority. Without any permissions or discussions whatever, I take the example of my native town of Eastbourne. Grove Road has a lot of cafes in it; the pavements are narrow and the traffic is fairly continuous. There is no way in which the cafes can spill on to the pavements. However, if we can close the road, as is easy to do because there are good workarounds for traffic that would not cause any great problem, we suddenly become able to offer all those businesses the opportunity for profitable trade.

However, in doing this, the district has to work with the county. I would like to see workable arrangements that enable the district to say what they want to happen and for the county to enable that without delay and argument.

[Baroness Grey-Thompson [V]]

My Lords, I have nothing further to add on this amendment at this time.

--- Later in debate ---

[The Deputy Chairman of Committees (Lord Russell of Liverpool) (CB)]

My Lords, I have received requests to speak after the Minister from the noble Lords, Lord Lucas and Lord Balfe.

[Lord Lucas [V]]

My Lords, I am grateful to my noble friend for that reply, but I did not gather how he expects the county authority to respond to a request from the district that a particular road should be closed to traffic to enable restaurants to spread on to the pavements and streets. We are looking to do things quickly. As others have remarked, timescales in such requests can stretch into years. We have been asking for permission to put a pedestrian crossing opposite the new conference centre we built. This opened a year and a half ago, but nothing has happened yet. We want these things to happen quickly. What in the Bill will make superior authorities react speedily?

[Lord Greenhalgh]

There is nothing specific in the Bill on communication between lower-tier authorities and county councils, other than that the intention of it is to move speedily to support the hospitality industry. That is the underlying purpose of the measures we propose.

--- Later in debate ---

[Baroness Bowles of Berkhamsted [V]]

My Lords, this amendment follows up the point that I raised at Second Reading about the use of outdoor spaces within the curtilage of premises that are not spaces covered by the definition of relevant highways and pavement licences. I did not get a reply, which I am sure is an oversight, as the Minister wrote on another matter. I wrote back on Friday, so at least there has been some advance notice about this somewhat fuzzy issue.

Newspapers have been proclaiming that this Bill allows pubs to turn their car parks into beer gardens. One such article was in the Sun on 23 June, headlined:

“Pubs and hotels allowed to turn car parks and grounds into beer gardens to boost economy as lockdown eases”,


and the Mirror said:

“What pubs will look like with beer gardens in car parks as lockdown is eased.”


Even the trade magazine Morning Advertiser said:

“This means pubs and restaurants will be able to use car parks and terraces as dining and drinking areas using their existing seating licences ... thanks to the Business and Planning Bill”.


There are other articles—indeed, so many that it looks like there must have been a briefing.

If that is correct then I am content, but I am confused as to how this is achieved by the Bill if car parks are not part of a relevant highway. So my first question is: are they covered as a “relevant highway” under Part 7A of the Highways Act? I know that they are public places in relation to some driving offences but, as I understand it, they are not highways. A simple look at Part 7A implies that they are not, but who knows what terms one might uncover with more research. In any event, I am also interested in patios, courtyards and other places that might be within the curtilage and not already under the licence. They are clearly not highways. So where is the general new provision? I have proposed one in my amendment just in case it is not there.

Next is the question of whether a licence is needed anyway. My starting point was an awareness that various pubs have already applied for licence variations for car parks and patios. I have also had some emails sent to me on the subject. Some people have the understanding that off-sales cover car park use—on the basis that it is the sale and not the drinking that is licensed—and that the extended off-sales therefore bring them into play if they were not in play already.

However the FAQs about off-sales on the Stafford Borough Council website make the situation clear:

“Q: Can I provide seating for customers of the business, for the purposes of consumption?”


That is for the consumption of off-sales.

“A: No. Seating cannot be made available (and this can include areas not under the control of the premises) and this is not restricted to seating within the premises such as beer gardens and adjoining smoking areas, but would include areas adjacent to the premises which also might include public benches.”


It rules that out: no providing of seating for drinking your off-licence purchases, although local authorities can vary significantly in their levels of strictness.

Then there is the matter of where the sale is made. If there is a bar in the car park, it is clear that the sale is made there. If a table order is taken and paid for in the car park or the beer garden, some people think that is the point of sale, but in the 2002 Valpak packaging case the judge held thatAn article in 2018 about pubs and gardens in the trade magazine Morning Advertiser notes that it is necessary to consider: whether the pub’s outside area is already part of the licence and what rules apply, as restrictions are common, often on time; if it is unlicensed and it is wished to include it then bear in mind there can be objections during the application procedure; that it can be used anyway if it is accompanied by the service of hot food between 5 am and 11 pm as that does not require a licence; and whether it is part of a public highway as then both planning and a pavement licence may be required.

All that, and indeed a lot more, is the background to my amendment, which in simple terms just says that open-space licences should be available on similar terms to pavement licences to cover cases where such a provision is needed. In most instances, non-pavement outdoor spaces are less likely to cause obstruction, and that is a valuable consideration, although they would still need to be treated sensitively with regard to noise and nuisance, especially in residential areas, and for that purpose I have copied in all the parts of the pavement licences referencing such matters. I beg to move.

[Lord Lucas [V]]

My Lords, I am delighted to support this amendment. I hope the Government will consider allowing councils considerable freedom as to what land they allow premises to use, obviously subject to the permission of the council and the landholder. If you look at a rather complicated town such as Eastbourne, there are few places where you can use the pavement, but not that far away there may well be spaces you could allow a premises to use. It gets quite difficult to negotiate the Bill as it is written, but with a bit more freedom for a local council to apply common sense to where they are prepared to allow tables to be put, we could get to a useful outcome. I encourage my noble friend to look at widening the scope of the permissions that the council is allowed to give so that we can find within the confines of a convoluted town the space that our businesses need.

[The Earl of Clancarty [V]]

My Lords, I will be very brief indeed. I support the amendment from the noble Baroness, Lady Bowles. It seems a matter of common sense that, certainly in the shorter term, there might be a need to use other spaces. The LGA supports such measures, and I hope the Government take notice and clarify the position.