Local Government Elections (Referendum) Bill [HL]

Lord Lipsey Excerpts

2nd reading (Hansard): House of Lords
Friday 15th December 2017 Lords Chamber

[Lord Lipsey (Non-Afl)]

My Lords, I congratulate the noble Lord, Lord Balfe, on giving the House an opportunity to debate electoral reform, albeit only one aspect of it, by introducing this Bill. Some noble Lords will know that I have previous on this: for nearly a decade I chaired Make Votes Count, a group campaigning for electoral reform. We were scuppered in the end by Nick Clegg’s eccentric decision to hold the referendum on a date in 2011 which made it absolutely certain that the cause he purported to support would go down to defeat. Incidentally, had the AV system been in place for the 2017 election he would almost certainly have won his Sheffield Hallam seat with the aid of Tory second preferences—serves him right.

The referendum of 2011 temporarily took electoral reform off the national agenda but I doubt it has gone for ever. We now have two dominant great national parties: one divided to the point of fissure over Brexit; the other with a set of policies far more left-wing than at any time in its recent history and led by a man whom few see as prime ministerial material. Under first past the post at the next general election, people—noble Lords excepted, sadly—will be able to vote for the devil or the deep blue sea, but any other choice is likely to be a wasted vote.

The case for electoral reform in local government is even stronger than in national government. Partisan party governance is gradually going out in local government. In many places now we have elected mayors. In other places we have the executive model of local government, where the role of individual councillors is more to represent their constituents than to govern. Yet we retain first past the post, which, among its many flaws, means that councillors are effectively chosen by parties, not people. Turnout is low, not surprisingly in the circumstances, so councillors have the weakest of mandates.

Meanwhile, piecemeal, subnational administrations have increasingly not been elected by first past the post. Mayors are not; for example, London uses the supplementary vote. The Scottish Government and Welsh Assembly are not; they use the additional member system. In Northern Ireland and Scotland, STV is used for local elections, and the Welsh Assembly wants it to be used for council elections there, too. I do not think there are many voters who would want a return to first past the post—for example, for the London mayor—although, regrettably, a proposal to that effect was sneaked into the Tory election manifesto.

The Bill of the noble Lord, Lord Balfe, would lead in time to a further extension of electoral reform into local government, and that is to the good. But I have a couple of concerns about it. The first is that it sets the bar rather high: 10% of local voters have to sign a petition to trigger a referendum, and even that is not enough. The council has to agree and of course councillors have a vested interest in retaining the system that led to them being councillors. I would love to see the country swept by a mass movement for fair votes but I shall not hold my breath.

My second concern is more fundamental. I am not a supporter of referendums. I believe in representative democracy—actually, with a slight leaning towards epistocracy, as represented by this House—but not in direct democracy. The last two referendums we have held—on electoral reform, with a low turnout and very little information seen by the public, and on Brexit, the consequences of which we are still grappling with—have not warmed me to the device. I doubt that local referendums on electoral reform would make many hearts beat faster, and I very much doubt that the majority of electors would choose to grapple with the issues involved. Turnout would be nugatory. Moreover, if citizens voted for reform, what reform—supplementary vote, alternative vote, STV, top-up lists? Would the top-up lists be closed or open? I will not even go into d’Hondt and the many varieties of largest-remainder systems. You cannot resolve a complex set of preferences by a single vote.

There is, however, a form of direct democracy towards which I am much warmer and which has promise as a way forward. That way forward is citizens’ juries. I am sure all Members of the House are familiar with what a citizens’ jury is: you get together a group that is reasonably representative of the population, and for a day or a weekend they sit together to debate the issues in front of them. These are exposed in dialogue with the key arguments by experts. The group deliberates and then decides. Often, as a result of the education process, people change their minds. I remember one citizens’ jury that started off by saying how dreadful the House of Lords was, because it was appointed, but ended up thinking that we were about right. That warmed my heart to this device.

The Constitution Unit at UCL recently staged a citizens’ jury on Europe and the results were released this week. They are fascinating. Initially, the citizens wanted free trade and less immigration—perhaps they should all have been given positions in this Government. But then the experts said, “No, you can’t have your cake and eat it”, so what then? A clear majority prioritised free trade over immigration controls, which came as a slight surprise to me.

I would like to see this Bill amended in Committee so that either councils could decide to hold such citizens’ juries or a given percentage of electors, perhaps 10% or less, could trigger the calling of one. If the citizens’ jury opted for reform, the law would bring it into being. My own firm belief is that in most cases, an informed and engaged group of citizens would want electoral reform but if not, that is their prerogative.

--- Later in debate ---

[Lord Balfe]

My Lords, I thank noble Lords who have spoken in this debate. I have obviously missed something regarding the noble Lord, Lord Lipsey, who is sitting in a different position in the House. I do not know whether this is indicative of something wider, but I recall years ago arguing within the Labour—

[Lord Lipsey]

Since there seems to be some mystery about this, I clarify that I have moved to being a non-affiliated Peer on being elected to the deputy chairmanship of the charity Full Fact, which is determinedly non-partisan.