Financial Services (Banking Reform) Bill

Lord Lawson of Blaby Excerpts

Wednesday 23rd October 2013 Lords Chamber

Moved by

[Lord Lawson of Blaby]

92: Before Clause 16, insert the following new Clause—
“Meetings between regulators and bank auditors
(1) The FCA and the PRA must make arrangements to meet the auditors of each bank at least twice in each calendar year.
(2) The FCA and the PRA may conduct meetings under subsection (1) jointly or separately (but each bank’s auditors must be met separately).
(3) The purpose of each meeting is to discuss matters about which the FCA or the PRA believe that the auditors may have views or information.
(4) A bank has a duty to ensure that its auditors attend meetings in accordance with this section (and compliance with that duty may be considered for purposes of the exercise of functions under FSMA 2000).”

[Lord Lawson of Blaby (Con)]

My Lords, Amendment 92 is in my name and those of the noble Lords, Lord Turnbull and Lord McFall. Grouped with it is Amendment 104D, which I will also speak to, although it has to be said that these two amendments have nothing whatever to do with each other. I will speak first to one and then to the other.

If I may be forgiven, I will go back a little bit in time to when I was Chancellor in the 1980s. As a result of what came to light with the collapse of the Johnson Matthey bank, and the total failure of supervision exercised by the Bank of England, which at that time had that responsibility, I became concerned about the quality of banking supervision in this country. I therefore introduced what became the Banking Act 1987 in order to greatly enhance the quality of bank supervision and bank regulation in the United Kingdom. If I may say, it was not helpful that the Labour Government tore that system up in 1997, but that is another story.

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[The Commercial Secretary to the Treasury (Lord Deighton) (Con)]

My Lords, these two amendments concern the role of auditing in banks. Many excellent points have been made about the historical challenges and weaknesses and to some of the problems they have created. However, not all of these have specifically addressed the amendments themselves.

Amendment 92 seeks to strengthen quality engagement between auditors and supervisors. We agree we want to accomplish that and the noble Lord, Lord Eatwell, made the same point. The question is about the most effective way to ensure it is consistently brought about and the difference between us is about how we accomplish that. It may appear attractive to require greater engagement in statute as a guard against complacency in the future, but the clause risks weakening the auditor dialogue and perpetuating the tick-box approach that was found wanting in the last financial crisis. That was one of the most important lessons about regulation we learnt from that crisis. The FSA was widely criticised for measuring adherence to its rules—like how many times you met the auditor—but not coming to an informed judgment about the risks in individual companies and the wider market. That is where the focus of our regulation needs to be.

I may have been in the private sector too long, but solving a major problem by legislating for a number of meetings has never been the best way to get quality outcomes to serious problems. The FSA was criticised, beforehand, for not engaging enough with the auditors of the banks they supervised. The then statutory requirement for regulators to meet with auditors at least once per year simply became another process and the wider purpose of the meetings was not properly developed. The whole point of the Financial Services Act 2012 was to make sure such failing was addressed and that the regulators follow a judgment-led approach to supervision. This means that all enforcement activities must enhance the regulators’ understanding of the business and the wider market to better enable them to detect risks before problems become serious.

FSMA now includes a new Section 339A—which deals with the powers to which my noble friend referred—requiring the PRA to have arrangements for sharing information and opinions with auditors of PRA-authorised persons, and to publish a code of practice setting out the way in which it will comply with this obligation. This code of practice, which we have talked about, sets out the principles governing the relationship between the regulators and bank auditors. The code has been laid before Parliament, so provision has already been made, both in and under FSMA, for a regular dialogue between the regulator and the auditor. These requirements mark a change in focus away from process—stipulating the number of meetings—to actual outcomes: getting them to do the job properly. This requires regulators to consider serious engagement with auditors and subjects their stated approach to scrutiny so we can see if they are complying with the code of conduct: it does not just fall away. This process is not only more rigorous in the short term, but gives the opportunity for parliamentary scrutiny when the codes of practice are laid before Parliament and provides a check on potential complacency in the future.

My noble friend Lord Lawson referred to the need to make sure the dialogue was at least quarterly: the PRA code says that it should be. Most noble Lords will not be familiar with the details of the code of practice, but for the major firms—the ones that are perceived to represent the greatest risk to the stability of the financial system—at least three or four meetings per year are encouraged. This is a risk-based approach and the meetings are: at least one routine bilateral meeting between the lead audit partner and the supervisor; one routine trilateral meeting between the lead audit partner, supervisor and the chair of the firm’s audit committee; and one bilateral meeting between the lead audit partner and supervisor in the lead-up to and during the annual audit of accounts.

Conversely, the amendment’s legal requirement for more regulator meetings with auditors would just follow in the footsteps of the tick-box policy from before the crisis. I am really talking about the smaller, much lower-risk firms, where the guidance is, generally speaking, for at least one meeting a year. Having two meetings a year would simply increase the workload of regulators and take them away from exercising judgment and away from prioritising the most concerning engagements. They would simply be setting up meetings, irrespective of individual circumstances, just because they needed to fulfil a rigid requirement. In our view, such rigidity would weaken engagement and impair the regulators’ ability to adapt their approach as circumstances change.

Because of all that, the Government remain unconvinced of the need to define the frequency of this dialogue in statute, as the PRA code already specifies this and invites scrutiny. My noble friend Lady Noakes put it very well when she spoke about how the world has moved on and how this now operates.

In relation to the second amendment, the Government have been clear that the crisis highlighted deficiencies in accounting standards and the fact that there was room for improvement. We all agree with that, and that is what we said in our response to the final banking standards report. The regulators must have the information they need to do the job of safeguarding financial stability, and in some instances that may require disclosure of financial information on a basis different from that used by other audited bodies. In response to the noble Lord, Lord Hollick, the PRA will have access to management accounts, for example.

In response to the banking standards report, the Government asked the PRA, working with other authorities and the FPC, to undertake a broad-based review of this subject. That review will take account of the nature and scope of information required to create a separate set of accounts, the costs and benefits of the initiative, and international requirements. From 2014, the new Capital Requirements Directive IV will require banks to disclose supplementary information which goes beyond the international financial reporting standards. Therefore, it is not yet clear whether we need an additional, separate set of accounts in the light of the extensive prudential and other regulatory reporting requirements that are being imposed through the CRD IV framework.

However, I can assure noble Lords that, whatever the outcome of this review, the powers that have been given to the regulators under the Financial Services and Markets Act, as amended in 2012—this, again, goes back to my noble friend asking about the existing powers—are already sufficient to permit the regulators to do everything that this amendment gives them the power to do. Their current powers would permit the regulators to make rules requiring banks to prepare additional accounts, to the extent that this is permissible under EU law, to specify the principles that should govern the preparation of such information and to make it public. To the extent that the amendment merely gives the regulators the powers they already have and does not require anything else of them, it is unnecessary. I therefore ask the noble Lord to withdraw the amendment.

[Lord Lawson of Blaby]

My Lords, I have listened to what the Minister has said. On the second of his two points, I think that he is very close to the position that I and other noble Lords who have spoken are in concerning the IFRS accounts and their defects. He is very much closer than he is on the first one, and he is very close to what I was trying to say. He said that the Government are going to see whether they can get an improvement. He referred to CRD IV, which goes some of the way but is not entirely satisfactory. The only way that we will get accounts in a form that is satisfactory for the regulators and the supervisory requirements is if they ask for that. He is absolutely right that they can do that now. In practice, they could have done it before the 2008 crash, but they did not. That is the problem. Those of us who support the amendments are saying: once bitten, twice shy. It could have been done before; it can be done now. But it was not done before. Therefore there should be a statutory duty, which would make it more likely that it will be done. How can that be objectionable?

On the first issue the principle is the same: once bitten, twice shy. The idea that this is simply a bit of box-ticking is an insult to the intelligence of this House. As we say in the amendment, the meetings should take place more than once a year—and they will be nothing to do with box-ticking. They will be meetings of the kind that the supervisor and the regulator find most useful. Those people will use their discretion; there is no box to be ticked at all. That idea is—if I may say so, with great respect to my noble friend the Minister—a total absurdity.

It is perfectly true that under the code of practice and so on, such meetings could take place anyway. But that was also the case before: not only could such meetings have taken place, but the Banking Act 1987, which was then in force—that part was not repealed— encouraged them to do so. However, although meetings did take place to begin with, towards the end they did not happen. That is why it makes sense to make it a statutory duty for those meetings to happen. They will not take the form of box-ticking; they will take the form that the regulators and the supervisors find most useful. We leave that to their discretion, but we do not wish to leave to their discretion—this is, in effect, the Government’s position—whether the meetings take place at all. We may wish to discuss this further, but for the present I beg leave to withdraw the amendment.

Amendment 92 withdrawn.

Moved by

[Lord Lawson of Blaby]

93: Before Clause 16, insert the following new Clause—
“Leverage ratio
(1) The Treasury must make an order under section 9L of the Bank of England Act 1998 (macro-prudential measures) enabling the Financial Policy Committee to give a direction under section 9H in respect of a leverage ratio for banks.
(2) The direction above may specify the leverage ratio to be used.
(3) For the purposes of this section “leverage ratio” has the meaning which the Financial Policy Committee considers that it has in European Union law or procedure from time to time.
(4) The order under subsection (1) must be made within the period of 6 months beginning with the date on which this Act receives Royal Assent.”

[Lord Lawson of Blaby]

My Lords, the amendment concerns an issue of critical importance. As was said in the previous debate, the regulatory and supervisory system clearly failed badly. The regulators were not primarily responsible; the bankers were primarily responsible—but the regulatory and supervisory system performed badly, as did the auditors. We are all of us seeking to prevent that sort of problem from occurring again, and part of that endeavour is to have a supervisory regime that requires the banks to be more prudent than they were in the years leading up to the disaster of 2008.

This subject was considered by the Independent Commission on Banking—the Vickers commission—and one of its conclusions was that basing the regulatory requirement on what are known as risk-weighted assets was unsatisfactory. That is, incidentally, also the considered view of the Bank of England and the PRA. One of the reasons why that is unsatisfactory is that the amount of risk with which one weights particular assets is to a large extent subjective. It is done by the banks, using their own models. The Basel people set a test for a whole lot of different banks. They gave them all the same portfolio of assets and asked the banks to risk-weight them. The difference between the risk weighting of the overall package in one bank was getting on for three times that of another. Indeed, for particular classes of assets, the difference between the risk weighting of the banks was eight times. To a large extent, the banks were able to use whatever risk weighting they chose.

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[Lord Blackwell]

My Lords, from the discussion, I am once again not clear on whether this needs to be built into the legislation in the way that is being suggested. As the noble Lord, Lord Turnbull, has said, I do not think that anyone would now dispute that it is a useful backstop to have a leverage ratio alongside the risk-weighted assets calculation of capital. However, that is built into CRD 4, and the PRA and FPC have recently demonstrated that they are perfectly capable of anticipating that in terms of the capital guidance that they give to institutions on the capital that they are required to hold.

There is an argument about whether 3% is the right level or not. I can assure my noble friend Lord Lawson that in the UK at least, whatever banks may have done in the past, they would not get away with applying whatever risk weighting they chose to devise against their own risk assets. All the risk weightings applied in the risk-weighting process are reviewed intensely by the PRA. It has to approve the internal model in order for it to be used to assess your own risk capital, and that process is now extremely well scrutinised by the regulator.

Nevertheless, there is a good argument that, because the process is bound to be imprecise, having a backstop of an overall leverage ratio makes sense. I think that is generally agreed. However, if you make that leverage ratio too restrictive, you may distort behaviour in a way that you do not desire by encouraging banks and other financial institutions to put too many of their assets into risky assets. If you have only a leverage ratio that does not discriminate by risk, and you are allowed only to hold that amount of assets, then you will stop risk weighting them and simply go for the riskiest assets you can get within that overall leverage ratio. The two have to work together. We should be careful about believing that having too hard a biting overall leverage ratio will reduce banks’ risks as it may work in the other direction.

[Lord Lawson of Blaby]

The issue here is not whether you should have a leverage ratio; it is not whether it should be statutory or not. The issue is who should determine it: the Chancellor of the Exchequer or the Financial Policy Committee of the Bank of England. That is the issue. Although I speak as a former Chancellor of the Exchequer, I still think it would be better left to the FPC. That is the issue; not whether it should be statutory or whether it should be alone without any consideration of risk-weighted assets. The issue is simply who should determine it.

[Lord Blackwell]

I thank my noble friend for that clarification, but I was responding to the points that were made by him and other noble Lords in advancing their arguments. If you come down to the question of “Does the PRA need more powers in order to enforce a higher or more restrictive leverage ratio?” then it can, under its existing powers, require capital add-ons to banks if it is not satisfied with the risk weightings. That is the way it would deal with it. It seems a slightly tangential point as to whether it is setting the overall leverage ratio or whether it is setting the capital ratio by other means. I should like to hear the Minister’s response on whether he thinks there is a case for this being built into the legislation.

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[Lord Deighton]

I apologise to the noble Lord. I was so excited about the first question that I forgot about the second one. It is consistent with what I have already said that the FPC intends to address this recommendation in that timescale, but a full assessment will depend on the definition of leverage agreed internationally, so it all rather depends. In terms of who is going to implement it, as I said, the regulators already have the power to do so. In June this year, they changed the ratios on our key eight institutions to protect them in the mean time, so they have these powers and they have exercised them. I think that is a killer fact.

[Lord Lawson of Blaby]

My Lords, in some ways this has been a rather puzzling debate. I warmly endorse what the noble Lord, Lord Eatwell, said. This is one of the most important—if not the most important—issue that we have to discuss in the course of this extremely long Bill. For that reason alone, I think it likely that we will wish to come back to it at Report. Meanwhile, I am encouraged to some extent by what my noble friend the Minister said. However, he seemed to be saying at least two completely different things, if not three. One was that we would have to have the leverage ratio—we are all in agreement that we have to have a leverage ratio—that was internationally agreed. Then he said that we would also have discretion, with the FPC, to decide the leverage ratio, and therefore that there was no need for the amendment because the provision was already there.

First, I am not convinced that it is already there. I shall read very carefully what the Minister said. When my right honourable friend the Chancellor responded to the recommendation of the Parliamentary Commission on Banking Standards, he said nothing of the sort. Nor did he say whether he disagreed with it. He said the first part of what my noble friend said: namely, that we have to accept the international standard.

There are only two major global financial centres: New York and London. It is important that we do what is right for our financial centre—and the United States takes the same view. We should not rely on international agreements. Too often it is the lowest common dominator that is agreed. The United States is going its own way, particularly with large banks. It realises that it is a major global financial centre and that New York is so important to the American economy that they have to get it right.

In the United Kingdom, the banking and financial sector is even more important to the British economy. In relative terms, it is five times as important to our economy as the American banking and financial sector is to theirs. Therefore, it is all the more important, if we are to have a strong and successful financial centre and a strong and successful economy in this country, to do what is right.

It is quite clear that that means that we should have a leverage ratio that may be the same as what is agreed internationally—if it is agreed internationally—but may well be a more prudent one. It certainly would not be a less prudent one, but it may be in the interests of the City of London and the British economy that it should be more prudent.

The amendment states that the decision should be taken by the Financial Policy Committee of the Bank of England. In a sense, my noble friend agreed with that when he said that the duty was already there and that we had given it to the committee. If that is so, it is good news. However, I suspect that it is not entirely the case. Therefore, it is very likely—in fact, more than likely—that we will come back to this very important issue on Report. In the mean time, I beg leave to withdraw the amendment.

Amendment 93 withdrawn.

Moved by

[Lord Lawson of Blaby]

94: Before Clause 16, insert the following new Clause—
“Proprietary trading
(1) The PRA and the FCA must carry out a review of proprietary trading by banks.
(2) The review must be completed before the end of the period of 3 years beginning with the day on which this Act is passed.
(3) The PRA and the FCA must give the Treasury a report of the review.
(4) The report must include—
(a) an analysis of any action taken by the PRA and the FCA to monitor whether and to what extent banks engage in proprietary trading and any action taken by the PRA or the FCA to discourage banks from doing so;(b) an account of any difficulties encountered by the PRA or the FCA in taking that action and an assessment of its efficacy;(c) an account of any requirement imposed on banks which the PRA or the FCA consider may be engaging in proprietary trading to publish a statement of the banks’ exposure to risk in their trading operations and of the controls applied to limit that risk;(d) an assessment of the impact of the ring-fencing rules on proprietary trading by banks;(e) an assessment, drawing on experience in countries other than the United Kingdom, of the feasibility of prohibiting banks from engaging in proprietary trading or limiting the extent to which, or circumstances in which, they may do so (having regard, in particular, to any difficulties of definition); and(f) a comprehensive analysis of the advantages and disadvantages of prohibiting banks from engaging in proprietary trading or limiting the extent to which, or circumstances in which, they may do so.(5) The Treasury must lay a copy of the report before Parliament.
(6) The PRA and the FCA must publish the report in such manner as they think fit.
(7) The Treasury must, following receipt of the report, make arrangements for the carrying out of an independent review to consider the case for the taking of action in relation to proprietary trading by banks.
(8) The appointment by the Treasury of persons to carry out the review requires the consent of the Treasury Committee of the House of Commons.
(9) The reference in subsection (8) to the Treasury Committee of the House of Commons—
(a) if the name of that Committee is changed, is to be treated as a reference to that Committee by its new name, and(b) if the functions of that Committee (or substantially corresponding functions) become functions of a different Committee of the House of Commons, is to be treated as a reference to the Committee by which the functions are exercisable; and any question arising under paragraph (a) or (b) is to be determined by the Speaker of the House of Commons. (10) The persons appointed to carry out the review must give the Treasury a report of the review once it has been concluded.
(11) The Treasury must lay a copy of the report before Parliament and publish it in such manner as it thinks fit.
(12) In this section—
(a) “proprietary trading”, in relation to a bank, means trading with funds on markets on the bank’s own account (whether or not in connection with business with the bank’s customers),(b) “ring-fencing rules” has the meaning given by section 417 of FSMA 2000.”

[Lord Lawson of Blaby]

My Lords, this amendment is in my name and those of the noble Lords, Lord Turnbull and Lord McFall. It concerns proprietary trading, which gave the banking commission so much concern that we produced a report entirely devoted to the subject.

Proprietary trading is speculative activity conducted by an institution entirely for its own benefit, where no clients are involved at all. It uses its own financial resources to conduct the speculative activity, which can be very profitable. I have no argument with it taking place, but I have always believed that it is the sort of thing that hedge funds should be doing—and good luck to them. It is not something that banks should be doing.

There are two main reasons for this. One is that it can be exceedingly risky—and we know that there is enough risk in the system without that. Since the activity can be perfectly well done—and in a free market, should be done—by other institutions, namely the hedge funds, that is fine.

The other reason that it is dangerous for banks to do this is the issue of culture. When the Parliamentary Commission on Banking Standards was set up, one thing that we were charged to do was to look at the issue of banking culture, because it was clear that it had gone radically wrong. Two aspects of banking culture in particular are relevant here. One is prudence. It always used to be the case—and it should now be the case—that this is an essential part of the culture of any bank. People put their deposits in banks thinking that it is a safe thing to do because bankers are prudent. The other aspect of the culture is service to clients. Of course, with proprietary trading, by definition there is no client; there is no service to clients at all. It is pure speculation on the financial markets, and on the bank’s own books, without any clients being involved.

That is why my old friend Paul Volcker—whom I have known for many years; he was chairman of the Fed when I first became Chancellor, and I had a lot to do with him—lobbied the American Government to introduce what was called the Volcker rule, which forbids American banks from conducting proprietary trading. He did this for the same reasons that I outlined. However, we did not go that far.

Incidentally, it is interesting that proprietary trading was rife in British banking before the crash. As much as 30% of the business of some banks was proprietary trading. Now it has almost completely disappeared, in the aftermath of the crash. The banks are saying, “Why are you bothered about proprietary trading? We don't do it any more”. That is true—they do not. But they will. They will come back, as they did before. When they feel that they have got over the aftermath of the disaster, and the blood is coursing rather faster through their veins, they will take these risks and do it all over again.

What we have said is that this is a serious issue that needs to be addressed, and that in three years’ time there should be a serious review of this, which will take into account what is happening in the banking world and will see how the Americans have got on with banning proprietary trading for banks. I am not totally optimistic, because the Americans have a crazy legislative system in which, once a piece of legislation has been introduced, the legislators festoon it like a Christmas tree with all sorts of baubles of this, that and the other. The simple rule that Paul Volcker wanted has been encrusted with page after page of appalling legislation, which he regrets; he makes no bones about that. I am quite sure that we in this country, with our much superior system of government, would not do that.

Nevertheless, we will be able to learn something from the experience of the United States. We will learn from the experience of what happens over the next three years, and I strongly hope—again, I cannot see any objection—that the Government will accept the amendment, which calls for a review to be held in three years’ time, and, in the light of that, for the Government to decide whether we should have a Volcker rule in this country and whether we should ban banks, although certainly not hedge funds, from engaging in proprietary trading.

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[Lord Deighton]

I was trying to be clear but I shall reinforce my comments. I think this issue was covered on the first day in Committee when we dealt with the details of ring-fencing. It is clear that proprietary trading for ring-fenced banks is not allowed; it is an excluded activity, as defined. As my noble friend implies, there are some exceptions to that which are predominantly related to a bank’s own hedging activities to deal with its own surplus liquidity. My noble friend’s phrasing was accurate and the issue is included in the Bill.

[Lord Lawson of Blaby]

My Lords, I think that there has been a slight misunderstanding. My noble friend the Minister said that we have gone down the ring-fencing route instead. That is a different matter altogether. The idea of ring-fencing is to put a sharp barrier between the commercial banking operations of a universal bank—the lending to individuals and to small businesses and, indeed, medium-sized businesses—and the investment banking activities. There should be a line between them. There is also the great question, which we debated earlier, as to whether there should be a total separation. This is about whether a universal bank—I agree with my noble friend that it would not be done in the ring-fenced part—should be permitted to engage in proprietary trading at all.

It is all very well to say that there may be cultural contamination as a result of proprietary trading but that, as there are other forms of cultural contamination as well, we should not bother about this one. I do not buy that. If we can significantly reduce the amount of cultural contamination by making proprietary trading by banks illegal, that is a plus. There may still be other problems with the banking culture, but at least we would have solved an important part of it.

My noble friend the Minister also seemed to say that there was no need to review this issue. There is a need to review it for the very reason that the noble Lord, Lord Turnbull, pointed out. The overwhelming weight of evidence received by the commission in conducting its inquiry was that it would be a very good idea for banks not to engage in proprietary trading for some of the reasons that I and other noble Lords have given in this short debate. However, as the noble Lord, Lord Turnbull, identified, the problem was how precisely you define proprietary trading and distinguish between it and market-making and some of the other activities referred to.

I have known Paul Volcker for 30 years. He is a very wise old bird. I am not suggesting that my noble friend the Minister is not wise, but of all the people I have known in the financial sector Paul Volcker is among the wisest, if not the wisest. If he thinks that this measure is desirable and workable, that carries a great deal of weight with me. He said that if a chief executive of a bank did not know whether or not he was engaging in proprietary trading he ought to be fired. At one level that is a perfectly good answer. Nevertheless, there is a complicated issue of definition. That is why we have said that we should see how things develop over the next three years and see whether there is a workable system in the United States or whether those who say that it is completely impossible to have a satisfactory definition because it will not work are right. We will find that out and then we will take action accordingly.

It is nice to hear mention of the notion that the PRA can bear down on proprietary trading as it implies an acceptance that there is, or could be, a problem. However, that is not the same thing as saying very clearly that no bank should be doing this, even if it is not a ring-fenced bank. At present, the Bill does not go far enough in that regard. This is something to which we will almost certainly wish to return on Report. I beg leave to withdraw the amendment.

Amendment 94 withdrawn.

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[Lord Lawson of Blaby]

My Lords, I strongly support the amendment moved by the noble Lord, Lord Turnbull. I know that my noble friend Lord Higgins wants to give us the benefit of his wisdom, but perhaps I may intervene now because I would like to explain to the noble Viscount, Lord Trenchard, why he has got completely the wrong end of the stick in terms of what this amendment is about. I must say that I was puzzled when he said that one of the reasons we got into difficulties with banking was because of interference with bankers’ remuneration. There has been no interference with bankers’ remuneration at all. It is true that there is a proposal from the European Union to cap bonuses, but that is not something we have in this country and the commission was explicit in saying that we do not want to see it. This amendment has nothing to do with that.

This amendment is about the structure of remuneration, not the quantum. We are not making a statement about the quantum, but about the structure. I shall explain why that is so. I am sure that the right reverend Prelate the Bishop of Birmingham will accept that nothing in this world is without flaws. I yield to no one in my conviction that, for all its flaws, the market system is the best system for conducting an economy and securing economic prosperity for the benefit of the people of a country. One of the essential elements of the market system, without which it cannot work, is the fear of failure. However innovative, adventurous and enterprising industrialists may be, they always know that if they get it wrong, they will fail. The fear of failure is vital because it is an essential market discipline. The problem in banking is that when you have banks that are too big to fail, that fundamental discipline does not work. That is the difficulty. If it is the case, as it was in the management of the banks up to the crisis, of “Let’s gamble, because heads I win, and tails the taxpayer loses”, you are encouraging gambling. You are bound to see more recklessness, which is exactly the reverse of what banks should be doing.

The noble Viscount referred to the good old days of the merchant banks. I knew them very well. While I did not have the privilege of working in a merchant bank, for a time I wrote the Lex column in the Financial Times, so I got to know them. One of the reasons for their great success was that although they were extremely innovative and they were staffed by very clever people, on the whole they were partnerships, and the partners had their own fortunes at stake. That was the vitally important discipline, but that is not the case with the banks. Incidentally, however, it is the case for hedge funds. I can recall, as will many noble Lords, that some years back there were a few people who thought there were dangers in the City and that some things might go wrong. What did they point to? They pointed to the so-called shadow banking system—the hedge funds. They thought that the big banks were fine, but that those dodgy hedge funds might cause problems. In fact, there were very few problems with them. Why was that? First, the hedge funds knew that they were not too big to fail. They knew that they would not be bailed out by the taxpayer. Secondly, on the whole, the proprietors’ own money was invested in the hedge fund.

This remuneration code set out in the amendment is not the whole solution to this problem. We have to make it possible for banks to fail, and that is part of what the Government have been doing with the resolution procedures and the bail-ins; we have read page after page on that. We have to enable banks to fail because that is the only way we will get the right kind of system; not that we want them to fail, but it has to be possible for them to do so. But unfortunately, at the present time, I do not think that they will be allowed to fail. They believe that they will always be bailed out by the taxpayer, so we have to buttress this in another way.

One of the most important aims of the amendment is to replicate after a fashion the discipline of the partnership. It provides that the PRA will be able to insist that bonuses—saying nothing about how much they are—would have to be deferred for a number of years in order to ensure that top management is more careful. It will know that it cannot grab the all bonus money in one year in the knowledge that the institution will be bailed out later on. Management will have to think a bit longer term. In a sense, it is like top managers’ own capital being invested in the company because their bonuses will be deferred for a number of years. The amendment provides a remuneration code to act as a sort of buttress. On its own it will not do much, but it could serve as an important buttress to other measures that the Government are introducing—there are a few more that I would like to see introduced. That will give us a banking system which is not a casino.

[Viscount Trenchard]

My Lords, I have listened carefully to my noble friend Lord Lawson and I apologise if, as he said, I got the wrong end of the stick. I would like to make just two points. With regard to my noble friend’s assertion that there has been no interference in variable remuneration by the state until now, unfortunately I believe that that is not correct. I have served on the executive committee of a bank since 2009 and the regulator has definitely interfered with the variable remuneration in terms of its ratio to fixed remuneration. Over the past three years, that has led the firm to increase fixed salaries considerably, and that has been going on in many banks all over the City. I am just saying that that has already happened and that the attempt to apply restrictions on the proportion of variable to fixed remuneration has led to inflation in fixed salaries.

The second point is that Kleinwort Benson was a listed company when I joined it and that the other merchant banks were mostly companies by that stage. I agree entirely with my noble friend that the partnership ethos was still there, but the listed nature of the businesses enabled even relatively junior people to be awarded modest amounts of shares as part of their variable remuneration from an early stage.