Pension Schemes Bill [HL]

Lord Kirkwood of Kirkhope Excerpts

Committee: 1st sitting (Hansard): House of Lords
Monday 21st November 2016 Lords Chamber

[Lord Kirkwood of Kirkhope (LD)]

My Lords, I wonder if I could make a short contribution on this amendment. I declare an interest: I am chair of a DB scheme for the superannuation fund for the GMC and have been chair for a number of years. It is a DB scheme and I do not have as much experience of DC schemes, but I am interested in the Bill. I am sorry that I was abroad when the Second Reading debate took place; I have read it carefully and some very powerful speeches were made.

We have heard again from the noble Lord, Lord Naseby, on the important point about mutuals and AVCs. An important point about AVCs has also been made by the noble Lord, Lord Flight, and I hope we will get some kind of indication about how the Government are going to respond to that.

My real reason for speaking is to support the comments by the noble Lord, Lord McKenzie. I have been doing legislation of this kind for some time, and this is by some margin the most statutory-instrument-framework type of Bill that I have come across. I understand perfectly well that there are reasons for this; long consultations about some of the problems that the Bill addresses could have provoked some of the outcomes we are trying to avoid. But I spent the weekend looking at the Bill and found that its vagueness—in terms of the policy that is left to the Government to decide at a later stage, much of it through negative rather than affirmative regulations, as currently set out in the Bill—makes it impossible to fit the pieces together properly.

I may be revealing my lack of experience—there are other colleagues in the Committee who know far more about some of the detailed aspects of master trusts—but I make a real plea to the noble Lord, Lord Freud, who has experience of dealing with concerns of this kind on all sides of the House from other Bills in the past.

Policy notes are one way of doing that. I do not think anyone is seeking to stop, hold back or prevent any of the ambitious and necessary outcomes that the Bill seeks to achieve, but we could well be in a position of being presented with statutory instruments in an undesirable way. We have had some conversations about what powers we in this House should properly have over secondary legislation and how we should exercise them. I think that can be avoided if the Minister adopts his tactic of consulting at every opportunity—at the appropriate moment as soon as the policy is finalised; offline, as it were—and with some policy notes. Then we will be confident that it will be safe for us to sign off Royal Assent for the Bill in the expectation that every opportunity will be taken by Ministers at every stage, if they cannot provide draft statutory instruments, to make alternative arrangements such as policy notes so we can be sure that we know what we are voting for and considering in secondary legislation. That is a very important point that the noble Lord, Lord McKenzie, made.

The Constitution Committee does not do notes of this kind unless it is seriously concerned, and we as a Committee would be foolish not to pay careful attention to the fact that it is urgently drawing matters of this kind to our attention. So I hope that we can get some kind of reassurance on that point from the Minister on the wind-up on these important amendments.

[The Minister of State, Department for Work and Pensions (Lord Freud) (Con)]

Clause 1 is critical to the Bill. It sets out the scope for the regime, so I welcome these considered amendments, which give us the opportunity to explore this important clause in detail.

We have taken considerable care in defining master trusts and setting the scope for the new authorisation regime. The guiding principles throughout have been twofold: the first is to ensure that members are protected against the risks that arise in these new structures; the second is to ensure that the extent of any regulation is proportionate.

For example, the definition applies to schemes which are open to more than one employer because the level of engagement and involvement of the employers and scale of such a scheme is likely to be very different from that of a single employer scheme or a scheme in which all the employers are part of the same corporate group. It applies only to schemes which offer money purchase benefits because of the risks that the member bears in relation to such benefits, but we have been careful not to create a loophole for schemes which offer mixed benefits—as we will come on to later.

However, we also need to be mindful of the fact that master trusts are a recent development in a rapidly changing pensions landscape, and the master trust market is evolving all the time. A one-size-fits-all regime may not be proportionate, and we therefore need flexibility to be able to respond to the needs and changes. It is for this reason that Clause 39—which we will come to later in Committee—makes provision allowing for the disapplication of some or all provisions of the Bill for certain schemes.

Turning to the specific amendments, my noble friend Lord Flight seeks to exclude from the definition “AVC only” and “relevant centralised” schemes. I have sympathy with his intentions. Many defined benefit schemes offer AVCs for historic reasons and could be considered to be DB schemes to all intents and purposes, but schemes such as this could be excluded from regulation under our powers under Clause 39, and we prefer to use this power rather than to create a list of exemptions in the Bill, allowing time for more detailed consultation with industry about the diverse types of scheme that currently exist.

I put it on record that our intent is to propose such a carve-out. That is: we intend to consult on regulations under Clause 39(1)(b) to disapply some or all of the provisions of the regime for a mixed benefit master trust scheme, where the only money purchase benefits are those related to additional voluntary contributions of non-money purchase members, but we will also be considering carefully the need to avoid creating any avoidance loopholes as we go through that process.

In relation to the relevant centralised schemes, I am concerned that my noble friend’s amendment may go too far. The definition to which he refers is not confined to industry-wide or not-for-profit schemes, and although there may be a case for excluding some such schemes, I am wary of creating a loophole.

Our aim is to protect members from the risks that are particular to master trusts, and these may equally arise in industry-wide schemes. Similarly, although it is true that most master trusts are run for profit, and that this gives rise to certain risks which the regime seeks to protect, it is not this feature alone which determines the nature of master trusts.

I am grateful for the amendment tabled by the noble Lord, Lord McKenzie, and the noble Baroness, Lady Drake. As the noble Lord said, it is a probing amendment to investigate the boundaries of the definition. The amendment would change the definition of master trusts in the Bill and extend it to all schemes which offer money purchase benefits, including those which are used by only a single employer or employers connected to each other.

On the noble Lord’s question of how and when we plan to consult on draft regulations, and indeed on the question asked by the noble Lord, Lord Kirkwood, we have worked with the industry and the regulator to establish the key criteria for master trust authorisation. We intend to continue these discussions to develop more detailed policy and secondary legislation. We will follow the published government principles to ensure that consultation is an ongoing process, using the most appropriate forms of communication. The timing of that formal consultation on draft regulations will depend on a number of factors. We anticipate that the initial consultation to inform the regulations may take place in autumn 2017. I hope that that gives the noble Lord, Lord Kirkwood, some reassurance about the process.

The amendment would extend the scope of the definition and the authorisation regime considerably and would do so in a way that would be disproportionate. To take the example of the scheme starting as a single group employer picking up a non-associated one and moving back and forth, if the scheme is intended to be used for more than one unconnected employer, it is within the scope of the regime. If it starts with only connected employers but takes on an unconnected employer, it will fall within the regime at the point that it takes on the unconnected employer.

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[Lord Young of Cookham]

The noble Baroness has accurately summarised what I said. We would use this clause to disapply only if we did not think that it was proportionate to apply the regime due to other existing protections in place.

[Lord Kirkwood of Kirkhope]

My Lords, perhaps I may make two quick points in response to the Minister’s explanation on these amendments, which was on the whole very helpful. The first is a wide point in support of the plea of the noble Lord, Lord Flight, that trustees need to be left with some discretion. I understand the responsibilities of trustees in a defined benefit context and I cannot believe that they are that different in a DC context. There is a body of trust law which they can found on; they have duties and responsibilities flowing from that. I think that a scheme’s continuity strategy would be an integral part of what trustees would want to do anyway. They would be derelict in their duty if they were not doing that, so the point made by the noble Lord, Lord Flight, is important. Other amendments which we shall come to later in Committee seem to take trustees for granted and use primary legislation to require them to do things that would interfere with their proper trustee duties. I would like the Minister to reflect on that.

My other point is that although I agree with the case of the noble Lord, Lord McKenzie, on Amendment 8 in preparing to adopt a master trust assurance framework— I do not make this as a cheap point just because I am Scottish—the Pensions Regulator and the Institute of Chartered Accountants in England and Wales may give the best advice in town but there is another part of the United Kingdom with a trust law which is, in some respects, slightly different from that of England and Wales. The Minister is on pretty firm ground in saying that putting this into legislation might startle the horses north of the border. We need to remember that trust law differs in some respects on each side of the border. However, the point made by the noble Lord, Lord McKenzie, was in principle the right approach. I support what he was trying to do but the Minister was also right to say that Amendment 8, as drafted, would not be acceptable—certainly not to me, if nobody else.

[Lord Young of Cookham]

If I may respond briefly to the first point made by the noble Lord, Lord Kirkwood, we are rolling out auto-enrolment, where employers have to enrol employees into a policy. Very substantial sums of money are in the process of being invested and it is crucial that there should be public confidence in the regime. I accept entirely what he said about the responsibility of trustees but we want to go beyond that and have a statutory framework in which people can have confidence that their master trust, which is getting their money and the employer’s money, is robust, has been approved and ticks all the boxes that we have outlined in earlier clauses. This is not to take away from the responsibilities of trustees but to give an added bonus of public endorsement and confidence in an area of public policy.