Bank of England and Financial Services Bill [HL]

Lord Hunt of Wirral Excerpts

Tuesday 15th December 2015 Lords Chamber

[Lord Turnbull]

That is not exclusive. Elsewhere, there is still a duty of responsibility. There is still personal culpability where it can be proved, but there are many people to whom it does not apply—senior people—and, there, you will need to have recourse to the duty of responsibility to secure a “conviction”—that is, proof of regulatory breach.

[Lord Hunt of Wirral (Con)]

After the speeches that we have heard, particularly that of the noble Lord, Lord Turnbull, I had hoped that the noble Lord, Lord Tunnicliffe, might rise to the Dispatch Box and say, “In the circumstances, I will no longer press this amendment”. But, sadly, he has not. In declaring my interest, I say to the noble and learned Lord, Lord Brown of Eaton-under-Heywood, and the noble Lord, Lord Grabiner, that not only did I completely agree with every word they said but I thought that they made outstanding speeches.

I strongly support the extension of the senior managers and certification regime to all sectors of the financial services industry. It will create a fairer, more consistent and rigorous regime for all sectors of the financial services, enhancing personal responsibility for senior managers as well as providing a more effective and proportionate means of raising standards of conduct of key staff more broadly, supported by what we have heard during this Bill will be more robust enforcement power for the regulators.

As I have not persuaded the noble Lord, Lord Tunnicliffe, so far, perhaps I may now proceed to declare my interest as chair of the Credit Union Expansion Project and Cornerstone Mutual Services. The noble Lord did not mention credit unions, but credit unions as deposit takers are subject to the senior managers regime. I am delighted that, due to the advocacy of the Association of British Credit Unions and the support of the All-Party Parliamentary Group on Credit Unions, both the Prudential Regulation Authority and the Financial Conduct Authority have made special allowances for smaller deposit takers to apply a simplified regime in recognition of the need for proportionality. But not a word of that lies in this amendment. There are no associated amendments helping to deal with the position of credit unions.

If this amendment were to be carried, we would have the reverse burden of proof applying to managers in credit unions. Credit unions in the vast majority of cases have fully non-executive volunteer boards which are democratically elected by and drawn from a credit union’s membership. They already face significant challenges in attracting and retaining skilled and experienced individuals willing to sit on their boards on a voluntary basis. The imposition of the heightened personal responsibility which the noble Lord, Lord Tunnicliffe, would impose by removing this clause would compound and exacerbate these difficulties for many credit unions. Some larger credit unions have already begun to move away from the voluntary board model in order to attract the right people in the light of SMR and, in particular, the prospect that the noble Lord, Lord Tunnicliffe, might succeed in this amendment. There are many other reasons but, please, do not impose this level of responsibility on institutions—admittedly deposit takers—like credit unions.

We have heard all the arguments about presumption of innocence. We have the opportunity of a regime which will be tougher and fairer. Please do not let us complicate it any further by introducing a disparate, varied scheme. Let us impose this new regime, which I believe will be very successful indeed.

[Lord Lawson of Blaby (Con)]

My Lords, like the noble Lord, Lord Turnbull, I was a member of the Parliamentary Commission on Banking Standards. I find myself in much the same place as the noble Lord and I will not repeat, therefore, all the things he has said.

My greatest concern is that there were, sadly, in British banking examples of grotesque incompetence and irresponsibility right at the top, as has been borne out most recently in the report by the Bank of England and the PRA on HBOS. It would be hard to read a more damning indictment although, as the noble Lord, Lord Turnbull, pointed out, it does not say anything further than we said in our own report—that it was an accident about to happen—which was largely written by the noble Lord, Lord Turnbull.

In addition to this grotesque irresponsibility and incompetence, for which the then chairman and senior executives of HBOS have not been adequately penalised, in my opinion and that of the Banking Standards Commission, serious wrongdoing was widespread throughout banking—although, as we all know, not all bankers were guilty of it. What happened? Eventually, after delays, the banks were fined huge amounts of money by the appropriate financial authorities. That is not only counterproductive but is seriously against the national interest. We want banks to be adequately capitalised, both for them to be safe and to be able to lend more, particularly to SMEs. It has meant that something like £1 trillion of bank lending has not happened because of the fines the banks have had to pay.

It is not the banks that are guilty of wrongdoing but the bankers, and it is important for this change of emphasis to occur. The only people who suffer when the banks are heavily fined—apart from the small businesses which cannot get loans because the capacity is less—are the shareholders, the one group of people who are completely innocent, who have done nothing wrong. It is important to change the way in which we deal with this and get at the individuals in senior management who are responsible.

Bank of England and Financial Services Bill [HL]

Lord Hunt of Wirral Excerpts

Wednesday 11th November 2015 Lords Chamber

The noble Lord, Lord McFall, and I were at an event at which John Kay made a remark about senior management which I think was right—“You take the bonus, you take the rap”. That is a fundamental principle which cannot be achieved unless we have a tool such as the reverse burden of proof. These institutions have made sure that they are impenetrable and the regulators in the UK have never found a way of penetrating through.

[Lord Hunt of Wirral (Con)]

My Lords, I declare my interests as set out in the register but particularly as a practising solicitor for nearly 50 years.

I heard the noble Baroness talk about fundamental principles. For me, no principle is more fundamental than the presumption of innocence, as one sees in the way that that has been set so deeply within justice systems, particularly in this country. In contributing to this debate, I come at it in a different way: I do not like the reverse burden of proof in any event. However, I have to recognise the extent of the problems that people have set out so clearly, so that would accompany my welcome of the Government’s decision to have what in effect will be the same statutory duty of responsibility right across the financial services industry. I hope there will be a clear message to the industry that, although we recognise that regulation has to be proportionate, there is no way that we can allow to continue the lapses in conduct and responsibility that have taken place.

I think it was the noble Lord, Lord Sharkey, who quoted Tracey McDermott. I too refer to what she said, because I strongly agree with her. She said this at the Mansion House:

“My firm belief is that if the financial services industry is to restore the trust and confidence of those it is here to serve firms should not just aspire to meet our rules. They should aspire to be better than that”.

I have always strongly believed in self-regulation. As a solicitor, what I call super rule No. 1 guides us so that, all right, the rule of law has to be observed, but our code of ethics and professional standards should govern everything we do. I just hope that the message will go from this House to the financial services industry that it should follow the example of the professions that set the highest possible professional standards.

[Lord McFall of Alcluith]

I welcome the noble Lord’s comments, in particular that senior managers have to perform way beyond the call of duty. Will he therefore support my call for a duty of care on the industry, thereby avoiding the reverse burden of proof?

[Lord Hunt of Wirral]

There is a duty of care. It depends on how much you enact to support the duty of care. As far as I am concerned, the customer, the consumer and the client matter most of all. With that there is an associated duty of care; there has to be.

I hate to quote Socrates to the noble Lord, but I seem to recall that it was he who said that good men do not need laws while bad men will always find a way around them. So the more you set out rules and regulations and duties, the more you enable people to find ways around them. My argument to the noble Lord is this: can we get away from trying to set down in legislation, rules and regulations everything you can do and everything you cannot do? Can we not return to that essence of your own principles, namely your duty of care and responsibility?

[Lord McFall of Alcluith]

The noble Lord has mentioned Socrates. I well remember that Socrates consulted the wise men and came away appalled by the level of their ignorance.

[Lord Hunt of Wirral]

I hope that the noble Lord will not mind if I try to avoid following him down that route. I hope that noble Lords will understand that my objection is that I dislike in any event the reverse burden of proof. I welcome the fact that it is to be abolished, but I want to send a message that the financial services industry should be composed of people who put the customer, the consumer and the client first and observe the highest possible principles both professionally and in the standards they seek to maintain.

[Baroness Kramer]

My Lords, I do not mean to be in any way offensive to the noble Lord, but we cannot afford to be naive. We were naive for decades and in that period significant abuse took place. I am not talking just about a failure to make proper credit decisions. If we look at RBS, we can see that it lost money the old-fashioned way. It made very foolish loans and abandoned appropriate credit standards. You could call that incompetence rather than venality. But what of money laundering, LIBOR mis-selling and PPI mis-selling? These were not failures of competence; they were quite deliberate abuses of the customer on an industrial scale, year after year after year. The assumption that all the people engaged in those activities have either changed who they are or have left the industry is, may I suggest to him, naive?

Part of the underlying problem is that so much money is at stake here. For senior people who turn their eyes away from abuse, there are very substantial financial rewards. As we have seen, even when there are some penalties such as clawback, they are only a small proportion of extraordinary rewards. We are in a situation where the risk is high if abuse continues. I understand the noble Lord’s concerns over the reverse burden of proof, and I do not support it lightly, but as my noble friend Lord Sharkey said, we have on the statute book at least 10 or 11 other Acts, frequently supported by Members of this House, which have decided that the reverse burden of proof is necessary because it is the only way for the law to be effective.

[Lord Hunt of Wirral]

I am not sure that I am supposed to try to answer the noble Baroness. Perhaps I may just say that if she examines her basic beliefs, she will agree with me that the presumption of innocence is a fundamental human right. I suppose we disagree because the noble Baroness would like to see a two-tier system. I find that very difficult to justify.

I revert back to my view that complementary self-regulation is the way forward. If the trust and confidence that the public had in the financial services industry is to be restored, the message has to go out to the industry that, rather than be subjected to even tougher statutory rules and regulations, the time has come for it to take the lead and determine how its businesses are to be run in the interests of the customer. I hope that that will be the message that goes out from this debate.