Wales Bill

Lord Hunt of Wirral Excerpts

2nd reading (Hansard - continued): House of Lords
Monday 10th October 2016 Lords Chamber

[Lord Hunt of Wirral (Con)]

My Lords, in declaring my interests as set out in the register, I reflect on a fascinating and interesting debate with some outstandingly good speeches. I pay tribute to the eminent historian, the noble Lord, Lord Morgan, who joins me in thanking my noble friend Lord Crickhowell for quoting from our committee’s report on this very important subject. Like many other noble Lords who have spoken, I am delighted to give my wholehearted support to the principles of this enabling Bill, changing the basis of the legislative competence of the Assembly, moving from a conferred powers model to a reserved powers model.

The obvious principle behind the Bill is one of which Winston Churchill would certainly have approved—namely, bringing power to the people. It delights me that the modern-day Conservative Party so readily and comprehensively embraces that principle, that philosophy, that policy. Another guiding principle underlying this Bill is to deliver, so far as possible, constitutional certainty. As many noble Lords have outlined, devolution to date has been a journey—always bracing, never dull—but now a destination is in sight. In a world full of uncertainty, that truly is most welcome, to businesses and citizens alike.

The St David’s Day agreement was a magnificent achievement on the part of the political leaders of Wales, which I gladly and warmly celebrate. It took devolution, at last, completely out of the cauldron of inter-party debate and created the prospect of a once-and-for-all settlement. A question which has long divided us, not just between parties but within parties too, setting colleague against colleague, is now being settled with a very considerable degree of agreement across the political spectrum. Let us work hard to retain that agreement as we proceed in the debates on the Bill.

I pay tribute to my noble friend Lord Crickhowell, who, between 1979 and 1987, did so much to initiate a programme of major urban renewal, as set out in his book, Westminster, Wales and Water, which I commend to this House. After 1987, Peter Walker carried forward that ambitious regeneration programme. Then, after three years, I took up the baton from him.

Like my noble friend Lady Bloomfield of Hinton Waldrist, who made one of the best maiden speeches I have ever heard in this House, I am proud of my Welsh heritage, not just as a schoolboy singing the Welsh national anthem in Welsh—which gave me real advantage in later life—but also to have served as Secretary of State for Wales between 1990 and 1993, and then again in 1995, under both Margaret Thatcher and John Major. After that lengthy period initiated by my noble friend Lord Crickhowell, Wales came to be seen as a force in its own right, standing alongside other European “motor regions”. One day I will explain to the House how I managed to persuade the Foreign Secretary that I should be allowed to sign treaties on behalf of Wales, which I did with Baden-Württemberg, Lombardy, Catalonia and Rhône-Alpes.

Inward investment became the driving force of the modern Welsh economy. It still is, and must be. The environment was transformed, too. I am pleased to see in his place the noble Lord, Lord Rowe-Beddoe. I was proud to have secured his appointment as chair of the Welsh Development Agency—not that he took much persuasion. The WDA was reclaiming the equivalent of a football pitch of formerly derelict land every working day. I pay tribute to all that hard work. Yes, we did good work, but there was, in the end, no disguising the democratic deficit that was emerging.

I pay tribute also to the titan of Conservative politics in Wales, whom we miss so much—my friend and colleague, Wyn Roberts, later Lord Roberts of Conwy. Known to friends and opponents—for he had no foes—as the “Bardic Steamroller”, Wyn was a redoubtable fighter for the people of Wales, their culture and their economic and social development. He was responsible for re-establishing the Welsh language at the heart of Welsh life. Throughout my time at the Welsh Office, he was an ever-present source of timeless wisdom, good humour and sound practical advice. As has already been mentioned, Wyn inspired me to make one of the best decisions I ever made—to appoint the noble Lord, Lord Elis-Thomas, as chairman of the Welsh Language Board. I am sure Wyn would feel very proud of all that has happened, were he able to be with us today. As a former political reporter, he had a natural and healthy lifelong scepticism about politicians. As a proud Welshman to his core, he well understood the philosophical arguments for devolution. He always greatly regretted the partisan nature of the debate and also warned, charmingly but firmly, against an endless proliferation of the political class.

Looking back, devolution seemed to be a never-ending matter for debate, a continuing process, even an interminable conversation in its own right—a kind of elevated and ever more abstruse academic seminar, not a concrete reality for the people of Wales. I do not believe this is well known, but in 2008 Wyn produced a report for the then leader of the Opposition, David Cameron, setting out the basis for a long-term settlement, transforming self-government for Wales from that debilitating discussion into a solid, entrenched system that would stand the test of time. That report marked a fundamental shift in my party’s thinking. It is a testament to Wyn Roberts and to David Cameron that here today we are discussing a very similar set of proposals, now with cross-party support.

I join other speakers who have paid tribute to my noble friend Lord Bourne for the leading role he has played in creating this new, more collegiate climate. He has been both visionary and practical, both a diplomat and a politician. As a party, I strongly believe we have to sense that devolution—perhaps even what used to be termed subsidiarity—is the best possible way of bringing decisions closer to the people. My noble friend grasped that from the outset. I believe that we now have a historic opportunity.

There are still one or two loose ends. I wish that so many of them had not featured in this debate, but we have to recognise that they exist. I know that noble Lords have a range of views on matters of varying moment, from the possible emergence of a distinct and distinctive legal system in Wales to the police. If tempted, I may refer in Committee to an agreement I reached with the then Home Secretary, Kenneth Clarke, about the transfer to Wales of powers over the police, but perhaps I should not delve too deeply into that because it was stopped by the bureaucracy of Whitehall. Both Ken and I have several times realised that we face quite a difficult task in taking this further forward and getting it on to the statute book. There are also cross-border train franchises and the allocation of air passenger duty, but let us not get too diverted. We should concentrate on the broad degree of consensus which ought to sustain us through the passage of this Bill.

There was a time when I feared that devolution would be the first step to the break-up of the United Kingdom. The world has moved on, however, and I have moved on, too. I believe that this legislation not only takes forward straightforward decentralisation, bringing power closer to the people, but also draws a line under a long and fractious debate, which has sometimes overshadowed us all and threatened to supplant positive action with hot air.

I look forward to the debates we shall have in Committee and on Report and to the positive and creative atmosphere in which we will have those debates, so different and preferable to the rancorous discussions that I recall only too well, and which I very much hope we have consigned permanently to the dustbin of history.

Wales Bill

Lord Hunt of Wirral Excerpts

Committee: 3rd sitting (Hansard): House of Lords
Tuesday 15th November 2016 Lords Chamber

[Lord Thomas of Gresford (LD)]

My Lords, in the 1970s, I was engaged in the case made by the Birmingham corporation to drown the Dulas valley, near Llanidloes. I was led by Sir Tasker Watkins VC and by Lord Hooson but unfortunately they could not stay more than a day or two so the full force of the inquiry fell on me for some three weeks. I was, of course, representing the objectors in the local community. I shall never forget the community hall in Llanidloes packed every day by the people from that valley. To the English eye, the valley seemed deserted. Such was our concern about that that we commissioned a report from the University of Aberystwyth. Some noble Lords may remember its great pre-war study of Llanfihangel-yng-Ngwynfa which indicated the strength of the Welsh community in a rural area. The study produced for the Dulas inquiry established the strong community links within that valley: the chapel, the school, the pub—two pubs actually—and how the people there came together far more than you would find in some housing estates in the sort of area that I came from. It was a strong and living community and we put that case to the inspector at the inquiry.

Birmingham corporation was represented by Michael Mann, later Lord Justice Mann, a man of great integrity. He presented the case for the corporation along the lines that Birmingham needs the water, but the ultimate result was that the inspector held against his case and for the community. One memory which I carried away from that was of the service of thanksgiving in the chapel afterwards. The community came together and I was there. The minister gave a prayer and a sermon in which he described the inquiry and the finest moment in it. I hoped he might mention my final speech, but he did not. It was when Michael Mann finished, on behalf of the Birmingham corporation. He had presented his case so fairly—and the result was not known at that stage—that the 400 people in the Llanidloes community centre applauded him. It was a spine-tingling moment.

As a result of the inquiry you can drive through the Dulas valley today, enjoy its scenery and meet its people; it is not the dank lake that I referred to in my closing speech. It is still there and still alive. Also, Lord Cledwyn, who as Cledwyn Hughes was Secretary of State for Wales, made a pronouncement in Parliament that no other Welsh valley would be drowned for the purposes of supplying water to England. That was his commitment. Your Lordships can imagine the sort of emotions that were felt at that time, and to which the noble Lord, Lord Elystan-Morgan, has just referred. It was a wonderful inquiry to be involved in. I support these amendments with all the emotion shown by my noble friend but I bear in mind the commitment given by the Labour Government of the day that no Welsh valley would ever be drowned again. These amendments are essential: it must be for the Welsh Assembly—the Welsh Parliament as I hope it will be—to have the responsibility of determining the water resources in Wales.

The noble Lord, Lord Crickhowell, talked about the River Dee. I am familiar with that river: in July I rowed some 14 miles up it in a quad. On one side was England and on the other was Wales. The only part of England that was ever on the other side of the Dee is the Grosvenor estate. The Grosvenors came in in 1066 and captured that little parcel of Wales. There are very important flooding issues affecting both sides. If the rain falls this winter, very shortly you will not be able to see where the boundary is because the whole of the area around Holt, Farndon and Almere Ferry always floods. There are problems, but the reservoirs have to be in the hands of the Welsh Assembly.

[Lord Hunt of Wirral (Con)]

My Lords, as we turn the pages of history, I share the view of the noble Lord, Lord Wigley. Having been born and brought up in the Ceiriog valley, I went through the controversy which took place, to which he referred most eloquently. As a Liverpudlian as well, I can recall the great debates that took place. We have to learn from the lessons of history, but there is no doubt in my mind that water is by far the most complex aspect of Welsh devolution. In many ways, it is what my great friend and colleague, Wyn Roberts, used to call Welsh water: dagrau o Dduw— the tears of God. It falls in all the wrong places, and as many noble Lords have already conceded, the devolution boundary follows water catchment areas rather than the England/Wales border and that is the extent of the problem. However, as my noble friend Lord Crickhowell pointed out, we have to confront that problem and find a solution. I strongly support the concept of a reserved powers model. My noble friend Lord Morgan and I had the honour to sit on the Constitution Select Committee. Although we applauded the setting up of a reserved powers settlement determining which powers should be devolved and which should be reserved to the centre, we said that it was a “complicated and challenging process”. This debate has demonstrated how complicated and challenging it can be.

I pay tribute to my noble friend Lord Bourne of Aberystwyth, who has adopted the right approach to finding a solution by listening carefully to what has been said. I think the solution is there. We ought to take the opportunity to remind ourselves once again what the Silk commission determined because it outlined the way in which we can solve this problem. I am sure that my noble friend will know it off by heart but I think that it is the common-sense way forward.

I hope that my noble friend will say how far he can go on this issue. We have already had yesterday’s announcement, which I believe is a step in the right direction. I hope that we can find a solution by drawing the boundaries in the right place, or at least by making sure that the powers of intervention are limited. The noble Lord, Lord Thomas of Gresford, with his great eloquence, won the day for the communities which he represented. We must make sure that communities are never neglected in the same way ever again. Areas determined as being slums were ignobly swept away and their communities were forgotten about. The communities wanted to be relocated, if they were to be swept away, but they would have preferred to stay where they were and have their homes improved. Those communities in the valleys wanted to see the areas that they had lived in all their lives preserved. I do not know what my noble friend will say but if he follows his normal course, which I warmly applaud, I am sure that we will find a solution.

[Lord Morgan (Lab)]

As a historian, I agree with a great deal of what has been said, including the speech of the noble Lord, Lord Hunt. However, the view of the Bill will be fundamentally prejudiced if a substantial move is not made towards accommodating the amendment of the noble Lord, Lord Wigley. The events at Tryweryn were a monumental injustice and a rural community in my own county of Meirionnydd was treated with contempt, about which I still feel great bitterness. It seems to me that it is, as it were, the Tonypandy of rural north Wales and is fundamental to how Welsh people feel their community has been dealt with. If something so fundamental and endemic to the concept of Wales is not substantially recognised by accepting this amendment in broad terms, the Bill will not receive the acclaim it otherwise deserves.

Wales Bill

Lord Hunt of Wirral Excerpts

Committee: 3rd sitting (Hansard - continued): House of Lords
Tuesday 15th November 2016 Lords Chamber

[Lord Wigley]

My Lords, I will speak briefly in support of Amendment 96, so ably moved by the noble Lord, Lord Rowe-Beddoe. We are glad to hear his expertise in this particular debate.

The amendment provides for the devolution of air passenger duty to the National Assembly for Wales. As has been mentioned, long-haul air passenger duty is already devolved to Northern Ireland and Scotland. It was included as a key part of a carefully crafted package of devolved measures in the recommendations of the Silk commission—of which the Minister was a central part—and would be used to give competitive advantage to Wales.

Plaid Cymru MPs attempted several times to include APD devolution in the other place, but this was met by a deluge of England-centric counterarguments from the Secretary of State and his Ministers. They seemed more interested in the possible effects of devolving APD to Wales on airports in Liverpool and Manchester than the benefits to Wales. I exclude the noble Lord from this criticism, which is based on what was said on 11 July in another place, but I am dumbfounded as to how Wales Office Ministers, who are meant to be working in the interests of their constituents, can justify their position in prioritising English airports. In this instance, I gently say to government Ministers that their job is to stick up for Wales—goodness knows, there are enough other people in the Palace of Westminster to argue England’s corner.

A recent Western Mail poll found that 78% of Welsh people are in favour of devolving APD, showing that public opinion is clearly on that side. Increasing footfall at the airport would generate substantial revenues elsewhere in Wales, and enable Wales to better market itself for trade, tourism and inward investment purposes, which will become a top priority in the post-Brexit world which we, sadly, will soon inhabit. Let us also remember that Cardiff Airport is owned by the people of Wales. It should be a matter for Welsh Ministers to decide on an aviation strategy that best serves those people. Airports in England should not have the power to determine government policy and block a beneficial Welsh devolution settlement. I support the amendment.

[Lord Hunt of Wirral (Con)]

My Lords, I have to start with an apology. I think this is the first occasion on which I have ever disagreed with my noble friend Lord Rowe-Beddoe. I cannot agree to his proposed new clause—“Tax on carriage of passengers by air”—for three reasons. I hope that when I say what I am about to say, he will recognise that I worked very closely with him in attracting inward investment to Wales and, indeed, in and around Cardiff Airport.

My first point is that, sadly, this debate, like so many debates about the great country where I was born, is centred on south Wales. There has been no mention, apart from a sudden reference just now by my noble friend Lord Wigley, to Liverpool and Manchester airports. I view the airports of England and Wales as a whole, and I will come to a solution in a moment, but Cardiff is certainly not the airport of choice for people living in and around where I was born. It is certainly not the airport of choice for those in central Wales. Indeed, the needs of a large part of the geographical territory of Wales are not met by Cardiff.

Secondly, I have never been a strong supporter of air passenger duty. No doubt, when all the volumes are written and all the Cabinet papers published, it will be seen that I was never a supporter of APD or insurance premium tax. However, I have to acknowledge that it is a very clever way of raising revenue—so much so, as the noble Lord told us, that I think it now totals £3.1 billion a year. The noble Lord seeks, with the best of intentions, at one single airport, to make it possible for the owners of that airport—by the way, I think there is a conflict between owning the airport and setting the tax—to be able to move the duty up or down. Because it is such a clever way of raising money, if the Welsh Government were ever a little short of revenue—and I think they usually are—it would be perfectly possible for them, under his proposed new clause, to raise the amount of revenue from APD. I just do not think I want to go down that route.

Thirdly, there is an urgent need to develop a better policy for regional airports. I am aware that the Government published a consultation paper—last year, I think—looking at the future of regional airports. We are, after all, the Parliament of the United Kingdom, so I would have thought we had to look at regional airports across England and Wales to find the best possible policy for ensuring their success.

I think there are three possibilities. The first is to devolve air passenger duty within England and Wales, a possibility that, if I recall correctly, was raised. Secondly, rates could be varied from airport to airport, with a view to strengthening the claims of that particular airport. Thirdly, we could give much more aid to regional airports. I recall, and the noble Lord may remember this, that several of the companies that decided to make substantial inward investment in Wales cited the efficiency of Heathrow Airport as the reason they were able to come to Wales.

As the Parliament of the United Kingdom, we ought to look at the policy for regional airports as a whole. I do not know whether the Minister can give us any idea when we will see a policy applying to regional airports in England and Wales, but I hope we will soon. In the meantime, do not let us go off in one direction or another in favouring or disfavouring one particular airport. We have to strengthen regional airports in England and Wales as a whole.

[Baroness Morgan of Ely]

My Lords, I agree with the case eloquently put by the noble Lord, Lord Rowe-Beddoe, and others. A reduction in air passenger duty would help air passengers, support growth and jobs and cut costs for businesses. I urge the Minister to support this amendment.

Wales Bill

Lord Hunt of Wirral Excerpts

Report stage (Hansard - continued): House of Lords
Wednesday 14th December 2016 Lords Chamber

[Lord Hain (Lab)]

My Lords, in supporting my noble friend Lady Morgan’s excellent speech, I make one brief point. The Welsh Government are not seeking to have their civil servants run the rail franchise—I do not believe anybody thinks that that would be a good idea—but to configure the right package for Wales. We can take the example of Welsh Water. To be precise on this and, I hope, not pedantic, Welsh Water is a not-for-dividend company. It is not a not-for-profit company. It has to make profits to invest. Any entity taking over the Wales rail franchise would have to do the same. But Welsh Water is run much more efficiently than privatised water companies in England because it can raise its capital at a far cheaper rate on the market than private companies—noble Lords can look at the figures—because it does not have to satisfy the shareholders’ speculative roundabouts. The amendment would give the Welsh Government the opportunity to invite bids of that kind.

Finally, if the Minister is serious about his support for devolution to Wales, why does he not respond to the Welsh Government’s specific request to have this amendment carried into statute?

[Lord Hunt of Wirral (Con)]

My Lords, I have a great deal of sympathy with the amendment and the wise words of the noble Baroness, Lady Randerson. Having listened to the discussions on the Bill, however, I strongly support a step-by-step approach. I can see the arguments on either side and recognise that the Silk commission recommended devolution. My recollection is that it recommended that the executive responsibility for the Wales and border passenger rail franchise be fully devolved. But it did so with a number of conditions and safeguards. The Government confirmed in the St David’s Day Command Paper that they would consider which non-fiscal parts of the Smith commission agreement might be implemented for Wales, including the commitment to amend Section 25 of the Railways Act 1993 to permit public sector operators to bid for rail franchises, for which Scottish Ministers are responsible.

As I understand it, the commitments that have been made have now caused the two Governments to work together on the detailed arrangements for the next franchise, including how cross-border routes could be procured and managed and signalling the likelihood that services primarily serving English markets would be transferred to other franchises for which the Secretary of State is responsible, all of which is welcome. I suppose my main question for the Minister is: can he please give us an update on exactly where we are because I would not want us to accept the amendment if it flies in the face of the careful consideration between the two Governments of how this could all be brought into effect in time for the next franchise, but in particular during the course of next year?