Smoke and Carbon Monoxide Alarm (England) Regulations 2015

Lord Hunt of Kings Heath Excerpts

Monday 14th September 2015 Lords Chamber

[Lord Hunt of Kings Heath (Lab)]

My Lords, we come back to a very interesting debate about these regulations and the process used by the Minister’s department. I declare an interest as an adviser to Consumer Safety International and a patron of CO-Gas Safety.

I very much endorse the remarks of my noble friend Lord McKenzie, who speaks with great experience due to his presidency of RoSPA and as a distinguished Minister with responsibility for health and safety in the previous Labour Government.

Let me say at once that we on the opposition Benches support the regulations. Some practical, technical details have been raised tonight, to which I hope the Minister will be able to respond. However, as a matter of principle, we support the regulations. But they are, of course, confined to the private rented sector. I repeat again the point that I made last week: when it comes to carbon monoxide poisoning, we know that the work of CO-Gas Safety shows that far more deaths occur in owner-occupied homes than in the private rented sector.

We also know that there are issues about British tourists going to other parts of Europe, where the provisions are even worse than in this country. We need to recognise that these regulations deal only with a very small part of the sector.

The second issue is clearly the way in which the Minister’s department publicised the existence of the regulations for those who need to know. It is very hard to argue with noble Lords who feel that the department’s work has not been up to the standard that we should expect. I suspect some of that is due to the swingeing cuts that the Government have made in the number of civil servants. Indeed, the disparaging remarks that some Ministers made about civil servants clearly did not help morale in government departments. I am sure the Minister would agree that, if civil servants and the resources spent in relation to government departments are continually undermined, it will have an impact. I suggest that we see that impact here. It is quite clear that there was no budget for getting the message across to the sector and it instead relied on press releases. Face it: no one reads press releases anymore. It is such an old-fashioned approach to communication —certainly journalists never read them. Relying on press releases and fire officers is simply not good enough.

Clearly, the regulations will go through, and so this will come into law on 1 October. I suggest that the Minister could give noble Lords a great deal of reassurance if she were to say that, on reflection, her department will now engage in a widespread publicity campaign. I think she owes it to your Lordships’ House for her department to make amends. The only way I think it can make amends is to do the job that it should have done in the first place.

I also take the point raised by my noble friend Lord Beecham that it is not just about publicity among landlords but about publicity among tenants. Surely there are ways in which tenants can be informed. His suggestion of using bills and the work of the energy companies is an excellent example. I think that we could leave your Lordships’ House tonight feeling that we have done the proper job of scrutiny—which does not seem to have taken place in the other place to judge by the noble Lord’s report of that this afternoon—if the Minister were to say that she recognised that the department did not do the right job but is now going to do it.

[Baroness Williams of Trafford]

My Lords, I thank all noble Lords who have taken part in the debate this evening. Perhaps I may first thank my noble friend Lord Crickhowell, because if I do not thank him now I may well forget, but I will refer to his comments in due course. I apologise to him for what happened the other day. I never knowingly omit noble Lords; I try to answer everybody’s questions, but on that occasion I failed.

My noble friend Lord Marlesford talked about the date of 4 September—in fact, many noble Lords referred to it. In his area in the eastern region, I understand a newsletter went out at the end of August. I am not saying that he has seen it, but I know that landlords associations up and down the country were making their members aware. Of course, if you are not a member of the landlords association you may well not have seen it, but it was making landlords aware from the end of August.

My noble friend talked also about the lack of a grace period. There is no statutory requirement to include a grace period. It is government policy that regulatory measures affecting businesses are brought into force on a common commencement date, which is usually either 6 April or 1 October, to help businesses plan for new regulations. The Government believe that it is important to enforce the regulations as soon as possible to help to protect the lives of private sector tenants. A considerable period has been allowed for landlords to prepare for the new duties—as I said, the regulations were laid in draft back in March.

There is also in effect a grace period, because where a landlord is in breach—the noble Lord, Lord Best, referred to this—they will have 28 days to comply with a remedial notice. If they do so, the local housing authority may not impose a penalty charge.

--- Later in debate ---

[Baroness Williams of Trafford]

My Lords, I hope that I can clarify that, in effect, the grace period means that the landlord has 28 days to comply after the local authority has been notified that the landlord is not compliant. The landlord has 28 days from the issuing of a remedial notice to comply. I hope that that clarifies things.

My noble friend Lord Marlesford asked about consultation, as did my noble friend Lord Crickhowell the other day. I do not think I answered him very well so I hope that I can give a fuller response now. The Government carried out a major consultation on this and 96% of the respondents agreed that the regulations were needed. Officials from the Department for Communities and Local Government, the Chief Fire Officers Association and local fire and rescue services have been in regular contact with industry bodies such as the British Property Federation, the National Landlords Association, the Residential Landlords Association and other stakeholder groups.

The Chief Fire Officers Association, as I explained in my opening speech, ran a national and regional advertising campaign. It included newspaper adverts in regional newspapers that stated that the timing would be October. It also ran ads in the trade press highlighting the forthcoming requirements for landlords to install both smoke and carbon monoxide alarms in the private rented sector. It estimates that the campaign reached more than 8 million people.

My noble friend Lord Crickhowell talked about the JCS I adverse report on the regulations. The department considered each of the committee’s concerns in great depth and acknowledged the error of not including a review clause. It committed to adding one at the earliest possible opportunity. We are grateful for the committee’s comments but believe that, with the addition of a review clause, the regulations should remain as drafted.

[Lord Hunt of Kings Heath]

I am trying to reflect on what the Minister said. Is she seriously saying that the fire officers reckon that 8 million people somehow or other got notice that these regulations were going to come into force? I have great respect for the fire and rescue services, but that is frankly not believable.

[Baroness Williams of Trafford]

My Lords, that is the information we have. I can ask them to clarify how they thought that 8 million people had received this information and write to the noble Lord, Lord Hunt, and other noble Lords who are taking part in the debate. I would not want information to be incorrect, but it is the information that I have.