Equality Act 2010 (Public Authorities and Consequential and Supplementary Amendments) Order 2011

Lord Hunt of Kings Heath Excerpts

Tuesday 29th March 2011 Grand Committee

I would have thought that we could all agree that we should be tolerant of the views of others. In recent years, though, we as a society seem to have passed through the stage of tolerance, giving it but a casual nod, and instead rights are everything. Rights must be enforced, however trivial has been the breach of a right, and however easy and painless it would have been to have left the right unenforced out of respect for the views of others. There are many here who know the sort of case that I am referring to. In short, this obsession with rights and equality has driven tolerance out of the door and bred in its place intolerance, injustice and unfairness. Now, with the report to the Equalities and Human Rights Commission recommending that children of 11 should be asked if they are gay, it threatens the very rights of both parents and children. Surely it is time that we stepped back and asked ourselves some very serious questions about where we are going. It is certainly time that we made sure that in legislation there is protection for those with deeply held religious beliefs and who want no more than to be able to continue to follow tenets of their religion that only a very few years ago virtually all of us accepted as wholly unexceptionable. I therefore ask my noble friend to recognise that there is great concern about all these regulations. She must expect a few fireworks when the more fundamental regulations come before the House.

[Lord Hunt of Kings Heath]

My Lords, I thank the Minister for her detailed explanation of the draft order, which applies to a number of public bodies in the list in Schedule 19 to the Equality Act 2010. We will be happy to support the order.

I was interested in the remarks of the noble Lord, Lord Waddington. He has certainly livened up what is sometimes a rather dull affair in Grand Committee. He will not be surprised to hear that I do not really agree with the general thrust of his arguments; in general, I am proud of what we achieved in equality legislation. I agree that one would like to enhance people’s minds; that is a preferable approach. However, legislation sometimes needs to underpin desirable changes, and this legislation is very important.

Sometimes, of course, there is excessive zeal, sometimes there are instances where people have made mistaken judgments and it is fair to raise those issues, but overall this legislation has proved to be effective, though I look forward to a comprehensive response by the noble Baroness to her noble friend’s questions on this point. I, too, have one or two questions about the order. First, where is the Office for Budget Responsibility? Why is that not listed? I understand that it is considered to be a legal entity and since it seems to have unparalleled influence, it would be useful to know whether her department intends to put it on the list. Will she also say something about the Criminal Cases Review Commission?

I want to come on to discuss the Public Bodies Bill because I am very puzzled about some of the organisations listed in the schedule. We have spent hours and days debating the Public Bodies Bill, sponsored by the Cabinet Office, which gives Ministers the power to abolish or change the function, governance and finance of organisations. It is a remarkable Bill, which is now smaller than when it started, which is very unusual for your Lordships’ House. I see the Youth Justice Board listed in Schedule 1. It is true that last night we voted to retain the Youth Justice Board, but my understanding is that it was the Government’s intention to abolish it, so why is it in Schedule 1? Where I agree with the noble Lord, Lord Waddington, is that, if it is listed, presumably its duty is to go through the responsibilities contained in the Act.

I am hopeful that the Government will accept your Lordships’ view on the Youth Justice Board, but let us say that they do not, that they reverse it on ping-pong and that eventually that is accepted. The Youth Justice Board is going out of business, but in this order, we are placing responsibilities on it. That seems to me to be a bit of a puzzle. I then come to “A Primary Care Trust ...” In the other place there is NHS legislation abolishing primary care trusts. These bodies which face going out of business are none the less having duties placed upon them as a result of the order.

The Audit Commission is going to be abolished, not in the Public Bodies Bill, but by separate legislation: again, it is listed in this order. On page 7, police authorities are listed. Shortly, after the Easter break, we will be having Second Reading of the Police Reform and Social Responsibility Bill, abolishing police authorities. I thought that the Government were trying to reduce regulation. Why are these bodies listed? As I see it, if we are going ahead with this appalling decision to have elected police commissioners, politicising the police force and abolishing police authorities, why are they listed in the order?

I come to the bodies that are listed in the Public Bodies Bill whose functions are to be transferred to charities or trusts. The noble Baroness mentioned the Inland Waterways Association. I can see why she says that that should not be covered, but what about the British Waterways Board? That will, as I understand it, cease to be a public body and become a trust. The question is whether the equality duty ought to transfer to the trust. I think it ought to do so and I would be grateful for her views on that.

The noble Baroness mentioned GP consortia. As this is part of the NHS Bill, I ought to declare an interest as chair of Heart of England foundation trust and as a policy consultant and trainer to Cumberlege Connections in relation to the health service. I know the Government have now said—the noble Baroness has now repeated the comments of her honourable friend in another place—that in the event of the Health and Social Care Bill becoming law GP consortia will be added. That of course is very welcome, but shadow consortia are in fact being set up at the moment, and, as I understand it, starting to make decisions in relation to commissioning. Could she consider adding consortia as soon as possible, assuming the legislation goes through?

Finally, I come back to the issue of police reform. My understanding is that if the Police Reform and Social Responsibility Bill is passed in its current shape, the responsibilities which apply to the police authorities listed here will transfer to chief constables and the Commissioner of the Metropolitan Police, including the employment of police staff. Can the noble Baroness give me some assurance, assuming that this Bill becomes an Act, that this responsibility would be transferred to police commissioners and the Commissioner of the Police of the Metropolis?

[Baroness Verma]

I thank noble Lords for their warm welcome to the order and for a very good and reasoned debate. As noble Lords will know, when the Equality Bill was going through your Lordships’ House, it really did generate common consensus across the House. It was something that we all signed up to.

The first point that my noble friend Lord Shipley raised was about the opportunity for the public to challenge if they feel they are not able to get a positive response. We have to make sure that there are enough processes and systems in place, and we are working on that at the moment through making sure that local authorities will be able to give advice to individuals on how to get information if they feel they are not being heard. There will be much broader consultation on that, and I hope that in that process the noble Lord will allow me to write to him and other noble Lords about the way we are taking this forward so that we know that individual citizens are empowered. That, basically, is what the Government are trying to do: to draw back from a process-driven way of working to a point where the ordinary citizen feels that he or she is able to go and question what is being applied in their name.

The noble Lord, Lord Hunt, referred to the new police and crime commissioners. They will be listed through the Police Reform and Social Responsibility Bill. The reference is currently in paragraph 135 of Schedule 16 to that Bill, so it will follow through. The Office for Budget Responsibility has been listed through the Act that created it, so that is already there as well. The Criminal Cases Review Commission is not listed for the existing race or gender duties; we considered it but we were not convinced that it had sufficient impact on the equality list that we have at the moment. Police authorities are listed, and will remain so until the new police and crime commissioners are established.

To answer my noble friend Lord Shipley, public bodies will need to give reasons under their decisions, and guidance will come from the EHRC on how individuals will be able to utilise their powers to challenge local authorities. A body of case law has developed under the existing duties, and the EHRC’s guidance and copy of this practice will be able to reflect that.

I say to my noble friend Lord Waddington that the equality duty applies to protecting the characteristics of religion and/or belief. I agree with the noble Lord that we must not get to a place where some citizens feel that they are not part and parcel of the society that we live in and that they cannot freely practise their form of belief or religion, as long as it does not have a negative impact on those around them. I will take back the points that he raised; he is not the only one who has raised them, and they are real concerns. It is important that we take away differing views—some of us may not agree with all of them—so that we can ensure that everyone is signed in to the equal opportunities agenda, which is very much what my right honourable friend the Home Secretary is trying to do. We must move away from the process-driven place that we have developed.

I for one have seen legislation that has responded to the needs of people like me who had to fight very hard to ensure that discrimination was a thing of the past. However, I do not want to be part of a process that adds bureaucracy and adds to the burdens of local authorities and organisations so that, instead of them developing and being responsible for what they are delivering, we add to a process that often segregates and creates divisions. That is something that all of us here would sign up to.

In answer to the noble Lord, Lord Shipley—my answers are random because I am receiving briefing notes from the Box—the Government’s Equalities Office is currently developing a toolkit to help citizens, volunteers and third sector bodies and to hold public bodies to account. I am sure that we will still have a part to play in the process of developing those tools. Debate is incredibly important for this issue, because it is something that everyone has to be fully committed and signed up to.

The noble Lord raised the issue of the relationship of the general equalities duty to the specific equalities duty. We must make sure that the support of the specific duties over the general duties is there through the specific duties. That is the only way that we are going to be able to measure whether public bodies are responding. We want them to be able to respond to their own local community needs rather than for us to superimpose from the centre what we think local communities actually need. I am sure that the socioeconomic duty would have placed a great burden on local authorities. This way, we are tying to make them responsive to the local communities that they are servicing. Hopefully, when they take that responsibility, they will see the challenge and be able to respond accordingly without having to think that there are boxes to be ticked, which often reflect only parts of an individual’s needs, in contrast to the holistic approach that local authorities and local public organisations should be taking on board.

The noble Lord, Lord Hunt, talked about some of the bodies on the list. While they are in the transitional period, they need to be able to respond and to be certain that they are adhering to the equality duties that are set out in the Act.

[Lord Hunt of Kings Heath]

Let us take primary care trusts as an example, which face abolition. Already clusters are being created. Staff are haemorrhaging; one can understand that. Unless I have misread the order and the listing in Schedule 1—some of those bodies are not new and have already been listed, but some are being listed for the first time—it seems to be extraordinary that poor PCTs are presumably going to get a guidance from the Department of Health saying, “You are now listed. Your job is to implement the equality requirements”, at the same time as they are going out of business. I do not know why they are being asked to do this.

[Baroness Verma]

My Lords, while inspiration flies in from behind me, I assure the noble Lord, Lord Hunt, that there will still be a transitional period during which PCTs cannot abdicate their duty to meet those requirements. The noble Lord will take on board that there are always transitional bodies.

[Lord Hunt of Kings Heath]

I am sorry to belabour this point. PCTs are being merged into clusters. They have virtually gone as entities so the morale among people working in them is very low. To have a note from the Department of Health saying, “Despite all that, you now have to implement this”, does not seem to be sensible or consistent with what the Government are saying about regulation. I simply do not understand it.

[Baroness Verma]

My Lords, since inspiration has just arrived, my note tells me clearly that PCTs are already listed for the existing duties, so this is no great extra burden while they are still in existence. In fact the burden will be reduced because we are taking it away from being a process-driven requirement to being one where PCTs, like all other listed bodies, will be responding to the specific and general duties within the Equality Act 2010. I feel that the noble Lord is not overly satisfied but I commend this order to the Committee.