House of Lords: Reform

Lord Hunt of Kings Heath Excerpts

Monday 11th October 2010 Lords Chamber

Tabled By

[Lord Hunt of Kings Heath]

To ask Her Majesty’s Government, in the context of House of Lords reform, what is their view on the purpose of the House.

[Lord Hunt of Kings Heath]

My Lords, no one would have enjoyed this debate more than my beloved friend and our good colleague Richard Acton. He loved this House and the House loved him. He made us laugh, but his contributions were always telling and to the point. He was immensely proud to have been reappointed to this House as a life Peer after his service as a hereditary Peer. I was proud to have been his friend. Our sympathies go to his wife Patricia, to his son Johnny and to his family and friends. We will miss him very much.

I am delighted that so many noble Lords have chosen to speak in this debate and that we have been promoted to a prime time spot. I want to debate the purpose of our second Chamber both now and in the context of promised reform. I have no doubt as to the vital role of the House of Lords in the revision and scrutiny of legislation. While I do not agree with much of what the noble Lord, Lord Strathclyde, said in his article in last week’s edition of The House Magazine, he was certainly right about this Chamber’s effectiveness. My experience as a Minister for 10 years, with the many defeats that I suffered, confirms that, but I have no complaints because the Lords was doing its job in holding Ministers to account and improving legislation. However, I did not follow the logic of the noble Lord, Lord Strathclyde, when he gloried in the defeats suffered by the Labour Government but warned off Labour Peers from challenging what he called the “clear mandate” of the elected House of Commons. I am not sure what mandate he had in mind: the Conservative mandate, the Liberal Democrat mandate or the coalition mandate? Which of those mandates said that child benefit would be cut and which of the many mandates will hold on tuition fees?

I remind the noble Lord, Lord Strathclyde, and noble Lords opposite that, in its excellent analysis of the conventions, the Joint Committee chaired by my noble friend Lord Cunningham, in its description of the Salisbury/Addison convention, refers to manifesto Bills—but which manifesto? We are indeed in new territory and I suspect that the noble Lord, whom we all admire, is developing a new convention, which in essence says that the coalition Government ought not to be challenged in your Lordships’ House. This House has won a deserved reputation for its ability to cause Governments to think again, but a Government will think again only if they are defeated or believe themselves to be in danger of defeat, and that means making necessary concessions.

We now have the new circumstances of the de facto majority that the coalition enjoys in your Lordships’ House. No doubt the noble Lord, Lord Taylor, when he winds up, will say, “Well, the Government have already lost some votes”. So they have, but let us see what happens when the heavy legislation reaches us. Let us see what happens when a number of substantial Bills have been through your Lordships’ House. If the coalition is determined to win every vote in this place, the work of your Lordships’ House is bound to be devalued. I say to the noble Lord, Lord Taylor, that he should not dismiss this concern out of hand. It is shared by many Members and is highly pertinent to the more substantive reform of your Lordships’ House, because it goes to the heart of what it is that we are here to do.

The Government have made clear their intent to bring forward for pre-legislative scrutiny draft legislation on Lords reform by the end of the year. This is prior to a substantive Bill being presented to the Commons by November next year. The cross-party group under the Deputy Prime Minister is working on a draft Bill, so this is an excellent time to debate the role of the House in a post-reform world.

All too often, discussions on Lords reform have been confined to membership and the form of election and have shied away from an analysis of the impact of democratic legitimacy on the work and nature of the second Chamber, but surely it is time to grasp that nettle. I have no doubt that, with an elected House, the dynamics will change; an elected House will have a major impact on the Commons and on our constitutional arrangements. Vernon Bogdanor wrote in the magazine Political Insight:

“An elected upper house … would replicate the Commons with its confrontational politics and whipped majorities. It would be more powerful than the current House of Lords, because it would conceive of itself as being more democratically legitimate. For that very reason, it would make Britain more difficult to govern”.

As a supporter of reform, I am entirely comfortable with a more assertive House, but I am puzzled as to why many of my fellow reformers are so reluctant to acknowledge it. An elected Chamber will behave differently—and so it should. Otherwise, what on earth is the point of an elected Chamber? I do not fear for the primacy of the Commons; that is reflected in the Parliament Acts, supply and confidence, all of which underpin that primacy. I know that the noble Lord, Lord McNally, has said that the Parliament Acts should continue to be the basis of the relationship but, equally, I have no doubt that an elected second Chamber will use all the powers at its disposal and I doubt that the conventions will hold very long. After all, they are merely voluntary constraints reflecting our current lack of democratic legitimacy. As Cunningham said,

“conventions … are flexible and unenforceable”.

The debate would be much more honest if the Government acknowledged this and opened up a discussion now. We need to discuss and consider whether we want an elected Chamber to be able to use all the current notional powers of the Lords or whether we need to codify or legislate to define the powers that are considered suitable for an elected, though subordinate, Chamber. I am convinced that we need to do so.

What about secondary legislation? In theory the Lords can veto all secondary legislation. Would an elected second Chamber turn that into reality? Ought it to be able to do so? Cunningham said:

“If the Lords acquired an electoral mandate, then in our view their role as the revising chamber, and their relationship with the Commons, would inevitably be called into question, codified or not”.

The noble Lord, Lord Taylor, may think that those who wish to raise these kinds of questions are opposed to reform and see this as a delaying tactic. He will know that I support reform, but, equally, I believe that unless the issue of powers is resolved now it risks unfolding when legislation reaches Parliament and this reform attempt will go the way of many previous reform attempts.

The House of Lords, of course, will debate this in detail when the reform Bill reaches us. I wish to ask the Minister about timing. In a paper slipped out by the Government just before the Recess, it is stated that the reform Bill will go to the Commons in November 2011. I assume that that would mean the Bill coming to your Lordships’ House in or around February 2012. However, the Session is due to conclude at the end of April 2012, so there will be little time to consider the Bill, particularly taking into account half term, Easter and the pressure of other legislation. Under the terms of the Parliament Acts, if a Bill has had longer than a month in the Lords and has not been agreed to, or the Lords has passed amendments that are not agreed between the two Houses, the Parliament Acts could be used to force the Bill through. I do not think that that would be acceptable.

Let us be clear: this House should scrutinise Bills in reasonable time and not procrastinate or filibuster. This Bill will be of immense importance and it is surely right that we should be given sufficient time to deal with it effectively and for amendments to be able to go back and forward between the two Houses. I hope that the noble Lord will be able to satisfy me on that point and on the Government’s willingness to lead a substantive debate on the appropriate powers for a reformed second Chamber.

--- Later in debate ---

[Lord Taylor of Holbeach]

My Lords, I thank the noble Lord, Lord Hunt of Kings Heath, for bringing forward this short debate and I thank all noble Lords for their contributions. It has been a good debate containing a great deal of wisdom, distilled and concentrated through the pressure of time. It is perhaps a good thing that it was moved from the dinner hour business, so that therefore we have had a little longer to speak. I shall just explain to noble Lords that the time constraints are laid down in the Companion. I hope that we will have the opportunity to discuss these matters at greater length on another occasion because the content of the debate has shown how justified that would be. After all, most noble Lords have an opinion on this subject and views are held with passion and conviction. I shall do my best to do justice to the speeches and hope that I shall be forgiven if I fail to cover every contribution and point raised. However, a number of specific ones were made and I hope that I shall be able to satisfy noble Lords opposite on them.

Several Members raised issues that might be described, as my noble friend Lord Elton observed, as commenting on the nature and character of the House and the style and manner in which it fulfils its purpose. Although not strictly speaking the terms of the debate, I understand why noble Lords consider those issues important and hope to be able to refer to them if I have time. The debate is on the purpose of the House of Lords, and many Members have given examples of what they think that is. The Government believe that its purpose can be summed up as threefold: first, to scrutinise legislation; secondly, to hold the Government to account—exactly the words used by my noble friend Lord Higgins; and, thirdly, to conduct investigations. I hope that this tallies with the view of the noble Baroness, Lady Boothroyd. Indeed, I think that all noble Lords have shown agreement with those three principal purposes of the House.

I will say a little more on each of those in turn, but I will do so in a constitutional context which recognises the primacy of the elected House of Commons. That is the cornerstone of this country’s parliamentary system. The work of this House should complement that of the House of Commons. That was widely recognised by noble Lords. I agree with the noble Lord, Lord Campbell-Savours, that it is increasingly important that the two Houses work closely together, whatever the shape of this House.

Let us turn to the purposes in more detail. First, there is scrutinising of legislation. This House shares the role of law-making with the other place. However, this House, rightly, has a reputation for thorough and detailed scrutiny of legislation line by line. In the 2008-09 Session, Members spent 60 per cent of their time debating and scrutinising legislation. We made 1,824 amendments to Bills. It is a matter of pride in which all noble Lords will share that legislation leaves this Chamber much improved as a result of the thorough consideration it receives here.

I should like to tackle the canard laid by the noble Lords, Lord Hunt of Kings Heath and Lord Bach, about the arithmetic of this House. The arithmetic of this House has not been fundamentally altered by the existence of the coalition. After all, those on the Benches opposite greatly outnumber that of any other single party in this House. An argument will be won by winning the support of noble Lords across the House. It always has been so. Indeed, the Cross-Benchers are there to be influenced and their opinions supported. No Government have a majority in this House, even in coalition. It is argument that is sovereign, I like to think, in your Lordships’ House.

The second purpose is described as holding the Government to account. In their speeches, many noble Lords considered it to be key to the House to hold the Government to account. I guess that that is what is happening at the moment. In the Chamber, about 40 per cent of time is spent this way. Through Questions and debates, this House challenges the Executive and holds it to account. In the 2008-09 Session, noble Lords asked 484 Oral Questions and more than 5,500 Written Questions. Many noble Lords have stood at this Dispatch Box and can testify to the rigour with which noble Lords hold the Government to account. The partially reformed House has no doubt become more assertive, defeating the Government on average on 50 occasions per Session. Outside the Chamber, in the Grand Committee Room, a further purpose is conducting investigations. The Committees of this House are one of its great resources. Their membership draws on a wide range of experience, and their reports are influential and well respected.

While respecting tradition, the House of Lords has also been prepared to embrace change and look forward with a renewed purpose. We need procedures which will help us to continue to fulfil our purpose. Over the past 18 months, this House has made a number of changes to improve its ability to scrutinise legislation and to hold the Government to account—for example, the new approach we have adopted to scrutinise Law Commission Bills. I am sure that the Leader’s group chaired by my noble friend Lord Goodlad will look into the working practices of this House and will propose further improvements. The noble Lord, Lord Hunt of Kings Heath, considers that we should be clear about the purpose of the second Chamber before we consider further reform. I reassure him that the cross-party committee on which served my noble friends Lord Strathclyde and Lord McNally and the noble Baroness, Lady Royall, will consider this issue with their colleagues. As part of their remit, they are considering the function and powers of a reformed second Chamber. There is no reason to suppose that their recommendations will impact on the conventions of the House without them being fully considered by that cross-party committee.

The noble Lord, Lord Wills, asked about the working group to consider the constitutional implications of reform. I can confirm that it will be necessary to put the conventions on a statutory basis to reduce the powers of the second Chamber. A reformed second Chamber should have the powers that this House currently holds. The Government are not setting out to reduce the powers of this House. The cross-party group will be considering the conventions and codification as part of its deliberation. I hope that that satisfies the noble Lord, Lord Hunt of Kings Heath, and the noble Lord, Lord Bach, who also asked about that issue.

[Lord Hunt of Kings Heath]

Can the Minister confirm that on that basis the House after reform will be left with the powers as in the Parliament Acts, as opposed to the codification of the conventions?

[Lord Taylor of Holbeach]

I am not a member of the joint cross-party committee, but the advice I have is that that is the case, that the Parliament Acts will not necessarily be changed as a result of this and that the conventions under which the House currently operates will continue to be the framework in which a future House will operate. I hope that satisfies noble Lords’ curiosity on that point.

A further matter for the cross-party committee will be how to handle the potential risk to the expertise of the House in the independent Members. The committee will address outstanding issues, including the proportion of Members who should be elected. If the reformed second Chamber were mainly elected, there would still be a role for Cross-Benchers. As with the current House, Members of a reformed second Chamber could access expertise and experience in a number of ways, including via the committee system. The noble Baronesses, Lady Boothroyd and Lady Howe, and the noble Lord, Lord Gilbert, asked what role there would be. If there is a mainly elected House, there would be a role for the Cross-Benchers.

Several noble Lords suggested that only an appointed second Chamber could continue to fulfil the functions and purposes of the House as the Government have described them. The Government do not accept that. We believe that elections will not undermine the ability of the House to fulfil its functions but will enhance it. There is no doubt that this House will continue to develop its role during its transition to a wholly or mainly elected Chamber. The Government recognise the need for an orderly process of transition from the current House to a reformed second Chamber. The Government are clear that this House performs its role well and can be proud of the work that it does. We strongly believe that there is not a noble Lord, whatever his or her views, who does not want the best for this House. The Government share this view and hope to have a constructive debate when we publish a Bill in draft early next year. I can assure noble Lords that there will be no pressure to rush pre-legislative scrutiny of this draft Bill. I can almost hear my noble friend the Leader of the House saying it in those terms. Indeed, I am sure that there will be many further opportunities to debate this issue, and I look forward to them.

[Lord Hunt of Kings Heath]

My Lords, perhaps I may take the noble Lord through the timetable. Before the Summer Recess, the Government published a programme showing that they hoped that the Bill would go to the other place by November 2011. There is not much time between November 2011 and April/May 2012 for a Bill to go through both Houses. Can I assume from what he has said that the intention is that the timetable will be lengthier than that?

[Lord Taylor of Holbeach]

I can assure the noble Lord that the pre-legislative process is extremely important. We cannot get a satisfactory resolution of this issue unless all parties to the discussion feel that they have a proper opportunity for debate and for giving their input. At the moment, a relatively small group of people is setting about the task with a purpose. The all-party committee is representative of the senior figures of this House and of the House of Commons. Its draft Bill is the material with which Members of this House will be able to debate and the whole process of pre-legislative scrutiny is vital if we are to get a proper solution to something for which I think that many Lords have indicated their support—that is, the reform of the House of Lords and the bringing about of an elected Chamber.