Parliament: Conventions

Lord Howarth of Newport Excerpts

Monday 2nd March 2015 Lords Chamber

[Baroness Stowell of Beeston]

The noble Lord knows that the 0.7% Bill, which was debated in this House on Friday, is, as he said, a Private Member’s Bill, but it represents a policy that was in the Conservative Party’s manifesto at the most recent election.

[Lord Howarth of Newport (Lab)]

My Lords, if form should follow function, as the noble Baroness said, and if the function of your Lordships’ House is to act as a revising and advisory Chamber, how can it have been right for the Government to alter the form of the House, as they have, by packing the Benches behind her to create a large in-built government political majority?

[Baroness Stowell of Beeston]

I take exception to the language that the noble Lord has used. As he knows, it is important that we continue to refresh this House with new Members. Of the peerages created during this Parliament, 47 have been on the Labour Benches.

House of Lords Reform (No. 2) Bill

Lord Howarth of Newport Excerpts

Friday 28th March 2014 Lords Chamber

[Lord Howarth of Newport (Lab)]

My Lords, every little counts. I add my applause for Mr Dan Byles and the noble Lord, Lord Steel, for this further small increment of Lords reform. It is good that the Bill will authorise the House to make arrangements for retirement and will disqualify people for non-attendance. On balance, it is also right that we should have the same provision as the House of Commons to exclude from membership of this House those who are found guilty of a serious criminal offence. In mentioning retirement, let me also say how much I personally shall miss the wisdom and companionship of my noble friend Lord Grenfell.

I regret that practical political circumstances have made it impossible for the noble Lord, Lord Steel, to include further measures in the Bill. I very much agree with my noble friend Lord Davies of Stamford that we should have a power to suspend and expel people who disgrace themselves and the House. I also agree with the noble Lord, Lord Jay of Ewelme, that it is important that the Appointments Commission should be placed on a statutory basis as soon as possible. I say this with sadness but in the 21st century we really do need to proceed to abolish the principle of hereditary membership of the legislature.

All history and experience teach us that constitutional reform is best when it is incremental and, indeed, that there is very little chance of reform unless it is incremental. There is some talk again of a constitutional commission or convention, and I agree that we have to think systematically. There are great issues before this country; for example, the integrity of the United Kingdom. Whatever the result of the referendum in Scotland, it will have constitutional implications. The imbalance of wealth and power between London and the regions seems to be becoming a constitutional issue, and of course there is the anguished constitutional issue of our relationship with Europe. The future of the House of Lords must depend on the views that are taken and the reforms that may be introduced in relation to all those issues and, no doubt, others.

Reform of the House of Lords seems to exemplify Zeno’s paradox of Achilles and the tortoise. The tortoise starts off slowly on incremental reform, and Achilles, who is the great athlete, flexes his muscles, preens himself and dashes off with a grand scheme of redesign. However, Achilles never overtakes the tortoise. He stumbles and falls, and we have seen an instance of that within this Parliament.

I am therefore wary of grand designs, and I am wary of constitutional conventions that will almost inevitably come up with grand designs for constitutional reform. These radical programmes of change, especially if they are based on rather shallow thought and the arrogant assumption that the Government for the time being have a right to do what they will with our constitution, nearly always fall flat on their face and generate a lot of trouble in the process. Organic reform therefore seems preferable. I applaud not only the noble Lord, Lord Steel, but the Front Benches of the parties, who at long last seem also to agree that incremental change is the right process and the right way to go. Noble Lords want reform. I do not think that I know any Member of your Lordships’ House who is entirely satisfied with the status quo. It has been frustrating to us that the Front Benches have hitherto not allowed us to proceed as we wish to incremental reform.

I agree with the right reverend Prelate the Bishop of Leicester that the way to reform is incrementally and that the time to reform is when there is demonstrable need, but I also recognise that the call for radical reform is unlikely to go away. One can imagine a certain conjunction of political forces in which a coalition Government would again get the bit between their teeth and feel that they were entitled to legislate for radical constitutional change.

I therefore hope that, if the parties are considering what they may put in their manifestos, they will give consideration to a system of indirect election, a system whereby seats in your Lordships’ House would be allocated to the parties in accordance with the percentage of the vote they obtained at the latest election, leading to composition of the second Chamber which would be proportional to the landscape of political opinion in this country. We could do that with a House of 450, as was recommended by the Joint Committee which scrutinised the draft House of Lords Reform Bill earlier in this Parliament. If the Bishops and the Cross-Benchers were to form 20% of the membership of such a House, I think that we could be confident that no one party would have an overall majority in the House. If they were to form 30% of the composition of the House, I think that we could be confident that no coalition of parties would have an overall majority.

Your Lordships, I think, agree that our House is at its best when Ministers, in order to prevail, have to win the argument and cannot get their way by mobilising the party machines by way of the Whip. When Ministers have to win the argument, the House of Lords is best placed to fulfil its role of advising the House of Commons by way of proposed amendments to legislation.

Under such a system, we would continue with an unpaid and part-time House. Noble Lords would be Members of the House for 15 years, a third of them retiring every five years. A transition to that system could be achieved over three general elections. This is a scheme not unlike what was in the House of Lords Reform Bill, but it substitutes indirect election for direct election. Dr Alexander Reid, who gave evidence to the Joint Committee, has written a paper which demonstrates the feasibility of arriving at such a state of affairs.

If radical reform is to be sought by any of the political parties and in a future Parliament, and if there is truly to be a search for consensus—the phrase that we so often hear—I believe that a scheme of indirect election could be a compromise that sufficiently satisfied the proponents of election and the proponents of an appointed House. It would retain the primacy of the House of Commons, because there would be no direct elections and no geographical constituencies; it would retain the virtues of an appointed House, its independence and the experience and expertise of its Members. However, noble Lords will be pleased to hear that it is not my plan to amend this Bill to that effect, and I suspect that agreement on any scheme of radical reform remains a pipedream. We will therefore proceed incrementally and this measure is a very useful step in that process of increment.

Legal Aid

Lord Howarth of Newport Excerpts

Wednesday 8th January 2014 Lords Chamber

[Lord Ahmad of Wimbledon]

My Lords, I am afraid that I do not agree with the noble Lord. This is not a jump into the dark; it is a recognition of the current situation that the Government face across the board and across every department. We are seeking to focus legal aid spending on those who most need it. Spending on legal aid in the UK amounts to about £39 per head. I reiterate that one should look at some of the figures, even making international comparisons. Compared with like-for-like systems—for example, New Zealand at £18, Canada at £10 and Ireland, next door to us, at £20 per head—our legal system will, after the efficiencies are made, still remain one of the best in the world.

[Lord Howarth of Newport (Lab)]

My Lords, the Minister has just spoken of efficiencies. How is it efficient to impair the quality of justice?

[Lord Ahmad of Wimbledon]

Again, I disagree with the noble Lord. Looking around the world, and speaking for the Benches behind me, I believe that our justice system is one of the best in the world and will continue to be so, despite the efficiencies being made. I do not agree with the picture that the noble Lord paints.

House of Lords: Debates

Lord Howarth of Newport Excerpts

Monday 25th March 2013 Lords Chamber

[Lord Hill of Oareford]

Perhaps that sound is someone ringing from another place with a view on the quality of our debates. The response that the House gave to the comments made by my noble friend Lord Jenkin reminds us that we do not want slavishly to follow examples in another place.

[Lord Howarth of Newport]

My Lords, if there were to be a minimum ration of, say, five minutes for each speech, surely it would not matter very much if from time to time debates ran on a little longer. That would facilitate the kind of more spontaneous and lively debating that the noble Baroness, Lady Miller, rightly calls for while ending what is, frankly, the demeaning practice of limiting the time for noble Lords’ speeches sometimes to three minutes, and sometimes to two minutes or even one.

[Lord Hill of Oareford]

The whole House has taken a view about time-limited debates. The advantage of them is that noble Lords know how long they have to speak, when the debate is going to take place and so on. The ingenious suggestion from the noble Lord, Lord Howarth, about allowing things to run on would effectively take time from someone else, and they would have an equally strong view the other way. These are not straightforward issues. One point worth making generally is that the amount of time in the previous Session set aside for debates was actually greater than that in the previous three Sessions. The noble Lord will probably know that I have brought forward proposals to the Procedure Committee to try to increase opportunities for debate and, importantly, for topical debates in particular because I know that there is widespread demand for that opportunity.

House of Lords: Reform

Lord Howarth of Newport Excerpts

Wednesday 6th February 2013 Lords Chamber

Asked By

[Lord Howarth of Newport]

To ask Her Majesty’s Government whether they intend to proceed with any reforms to the composition of the House of Lords.

[The Chancellor of the Duchy of Lancaster (Lord Hill of Oareford)]

My Lords, as noble Lords know, the Government have no further plans for legislation to reform this House in this Parliament.

[Lord Howarth of Newport]

My Lords, given that the House of Commons has made it absolutely clear that it will not tolerate the challenge to its primacy of an elected second Chamber, given the Deputy Prime Minister’s sensible acknowledgement that the best is the enemy of the good and given the undesirability in the interests of good government that the question of Lords reform should overshadow the next Parliament, will Ministers introduce legislation in this Parliament to enable us to resolve the issues of how Members are to be appointed to the House of Lords, the future size of the House, how the balance between the political parties, the Cross Benches and the Lords spiritual is to be determined, the future of hereditary membership and life peerages, and provision for retirement and disqualification, all of which need to be resolved and upon which sufficient consensus could be achieved?

EU Council

Lord Howarth of Newport Excerpts

Monday 17th December 2012 Lords Chamber

[Lord Strathclyde]

My Lords, I do not share the view that the noble Lord has propounded that my right honourable friend the Prime Minister’s Statement was negative on this matter. There are many people in this country who will regard the British Prime Minister saying that we will not join a European army as an extremely good and positive thing. I would have liked to have seen the noble Lord agree with that.

However, on the common security and defence policy, of course we are fully behind proposals to increase our international security. As I said to the noble Lord, Lord Stoddart of Swindon, a few moments ago, our policy is based very much on international co-operation. NATO is the cornerstone of our defence process, but we also have bilateral relationships with individual countries that are to the benefit of us all.

I cannot believe that the noble Lord, with all his experience, knowledge and background in development, particularly development in Africa, would think that this Government would ever shirk from talking about their development record, most notably the record amounts of money that we now spend, and focus extremely effectively, in the parts of the world with greatest need. That is something that the Government are very proud of. I am sure that future Councils will refer to development whenever they get around to discussing it.

[Lord Howarth of Newport]

My Lords, has it not been a cardinal principle of British foreign policy for hundreds of years to maintain our influence with powers on the Continent of Europe the policies of which are crucial to our interests? The Statement spoke somewhat vaguely about safeguards; the noble Lord has declined to be drawn on details. Will he explain to the House how, as European Council follows European Council, and as those countries that manage to survive as members of the eurozone continue to deepen their fiscal and political integration, the Government’s engagement with those core European powers, which will be concerting their polices to powerful effect, can be increasingly other than tangential?

[Lord Strathclyde]

My Lords, perhaps there is a philosophical gap between the noble Lord and the Government on this issue. We completely support the idea of a banking union within the eurozone; it is key to the eurozone succeeding in the longer term, and we have long supported it. At the same time, we wanted to have safeguards within the single market—which I know that the noble Lord supports—to ensure that there was non-discrimination. In the communiqué, we have an absolute commitment to non-discrimination within the single market for countries that are outside the eurozone.

I am bound to say, despite the rhetoric that sometimes comes from opponents of this Government’s policy on Europe, that this European Council—the last of seven of this year—has been a resounding success. I very much hope that it will set a good pattern for the course of the next few months.

House of Lords Reform Bill

Lord Howarth of Newport Excerpts

Wednesday 27th June 2012 Lords Chamber

[Lord Strathclyde]

I do not think that there is any difference. We decided there should be a transition arrangement over three parliamentary terms. That will give the existing House, including any new Peers appointed since 2010, the opportunity to remain here until 2025 if they survive that long and if they survive the process of transition.

[Lord Howarth of Newport]

My Lords, will the Leader of the House reconsider the reply that he gave just now to the noble Lord, Lord Forsyth? Will he accept that there are few, if any, who dispute the principle that those who make the laws of the land should be elected by those to whom the laws apply? But in the interests of ensuring that the Deputy Prime Minister does not mislead the House of Commons or the country, will he undertake to find an opportunity to explain to the Deputy Prime Minister that Members of the present House of Lords do not make the laws of the land but confine themselves to advising those who do—the elected Members of the House of Commons? Therefore, the whole project of this Bill is based on a fallacy, and a dangerous fallacy at that, because it would confuse and diminish the present clear-cut accountability of the Government to the people through their elected representatives in the House of Commons.

[Lord Strathclyde]

My Lords, all I can say is, you could have fooled me. I have seen the noble Lord robustly defend or indeed attack a piece of legislation in this House. But I meet with the Deputy Prime Minister very regularly and I shall draw the noble Lord’s remarks to his attention.

Health and Social Care Bill

Lord Howarth of Newport Excerpts

Wednesday 1st February 2012 Lords Chamber

[Lord Hughes of Woodside]

My Lords, I have listened to the noble Lords, Lord Martin of Springburn and the Leader of the House. They both claim, each in their different way, that this is a wholly independent procedure. Are we really to believe that one morning the Speaker gets up and says, “Eureka, I’m going to decide whether this is financial privilege or not”? Who initiates the process? It is hard to believe there was not a nudge and a wink from the Government to try to save their own blushes.

[Lord Howarth of Newport]

My Lords, is not the reality that when the Government have run out of arguments and patience they ask the Speaker if he will invoke financial privilege? They cross their fingers and hope that he will do so. Do this Government actually want the House of Lords to operate as a revising Chamber or not?

[Lord Strathclyde]

I do find it faintly comical that former Members of the House of the Commons, who would have died in a ditch to preserve and protect financial privilege, decide to take a completely different view as soon as they are translated into Members of this House. I said earlier that surely the time for us to have this debate is when we are faced with the facts of the Bill, with the amendments from the House of Commons. We will have the benefit of seeing the debate that is taking place in the House of Commons as we speak. Would that not be a better way of proceeding? I very much hope that we will be able to pass this Motion from my noble friend Lord Howe, unless he wishes to add anything to the questions that were put to him.

House of Lords: Reform

Lord Howarth of Newport Excerpts

Tuesday 24th January 2012 Lords Chamber

[Lord Hughes of Woodside]

My Lords—

[Lord Howarth of Newport]

Should not addiction to constitutional reform be treated with the same bracing cure as addiction to welfare benefits? Will the Government set a cap on the amount that ordinary, decent, hard-working British citizens are to be required to pay to support the constitutional reform dependency of the Liberal Democrats?

[Lord Strathclyde]

My Lords, the noble Lord speaks as though his own party did not stand on a manifesto of reform of your Lordships’ House, which it did.

Scotland: Referendum

Lord Howarth of Newport Excerpts

Monday 31st October 2011 Lords Chamber

[Lord Strathclyde]

The noble Lord brings a lot of experience to this whole subject. I am glad to say that my right honourable friend the Secretary of State for Scotland himself has laid six—there could be many more—questions to the First Minister for Scotland on the whole issue of what independence means, so that we can have the clarity that I alluded to in the first Answer.

[Lord Howarth of Newport]

If a referendum on Scottish independence produced a yes vote, would it not then follow that the size of the House of Commons would be reduced and that the House of Commons would be weakened? What bearing does the noble Lord the Leader of the House think that that would have upon the relationship between these two Houses of Parliament, especially if there were to be an elected second Chamber?

[Lord Strathclyde]

My Lords, I admire the way the noble Lord gets the question of an elected second Chamber into virtually every question he poses, but even for me that is far too hypothetical for me to join him.