Computer Systems: Independent Testing

Lord Holmes of Richmond Excerpts

Monday 12th February 2024 Lords Chamber

[Lord Sharpe of Epsom (Con)]

Regrettably, the noble Lord is wrong. We set up a multistakeholder group of systems owners, law enforcement, cybersecurity companies and prosecutors—a systems access group—to specifically consider the proposal of statutory defences. Six meetings were held between May 2023 and October 2023. Unfortunately, there is a lack of consensus among those participants and the cybersecurity industry, and with law enforcement and prosecutors, on whether there is a need for statutory defences and on what is considered to be legitimate activity. That lack of consensus proves the point that careful thought is needed in this area.

[Lord Holmes of Richmond (Con)]

My Lords, I declare my technology interests as set out in the register. Does my noble friend agree that it is time that a statute which is 34 years old, was introduced when only 0.5% of us were online and which 91% of cyber professionals say is damaging to the UK cyber industry, was updated to enable our fantastic cyber professionals and to increase growth and productivity in the UK?

[Lord Sharpe of Epsom (Con)]

My noble friend raises some good points and, as I said, the Government are considering the right way to do that. If I talk about some of the difficulties, it might illustrate this point to the House. Amending legislation to enable cybersecurity activities involves accessing computer systems, and the data is complex. This needs a lot of thought. We would need to establish what constitutes legitimate cybersecurity activity and the boundaries of such activity. We would need to consider who should be allowed to undertake such activity, where the professional standards would need to be complied with and what reporting or oversight would be needed. We cannot make changes that would prevent law enforcement agencies and prosecutors investigating and prosecuting those who commit cybercrimes. It is right to consider this carefully and that is what we are doing.

Equipment Theft (Prevention) Bill

Lord Holmes of Richmond Excerpts

2nd reading
Friday 19th May 2023 Lords Chamber

[Lord Holmes of Richmond (Con)]

My Lords, I rise briefly in support of the Bill. I congratulate my noble friend Lord Blencathra on the thorough and clear manner in which he introduced it, taking us through all its provisions. It has to be a positive Bill with respect to the equipment and kit that so many often small businesses and individuals rely on; to make that equipment more difficult to steal and more difficult to sell is clearly a positive thing. The Bill brings support to our rural communities and the countryside and, through that, to our country. I support it and I wish it a swift, positive passage on to the statute book

Licensing Act 2003 (Liaison Committee Report)

Lord Holmes of Richmond Excerpts

Wednesday 17th May 2023 Grand Committee

[Lord Holmes of Richmond (Con)]

My Lords, it is a pleasure to take part in this debate. In doing so, I declare my technology interests. I congratulate my noble friend Lady McIntosh of Pickering, all members of the committee and, indeed, all the staff of the House who worked to produce this and the original report.

Does my noble friend the Minister agree that, ultimately, if planning decisions were predicated on the concept of inclusive by design and if licensing decisions had an access statement attached to them, that could transform this whole process, not just for disabled people but for all people?

I will talk about digital ID and inclusion, and make some points on timing. Does the Minister agree that, once licences are issued, given the significant proportion of the difficulties that sometimes emerge, particularly where alcohol licences are involved, an effective system of digital ID would be such a positive force for good in this space? It would not be centralised but controlled by the individual, deciding what credentials to give, at what point and for what purpose. That would make such a difference to so many of the problems with that particular type of licensed venue.

I turn to inclusion, and inclusion by design. There is a recommendation in this report, which is also taken from the special inquiry report from the noble Baroness, Lady Deech, which suggests, rightly, attaching an access statement to any licence. This seems to make complete sense. Does the Minister agree?

Although it has taken some time to get this debate, it offers the opportunity to have a bit of a curtain-raiser for some of the issues yet to come in the Levelling-up and Regeneration Bill. The noble Lord, Lord Foster, and my noble friend Lady McIntosh rightly raised a number of issues. Does the Minister agree that there are issues at the heart of the Bill that could be resolved by having an inclusive by design amendment accepted when it comes to planning, which would run through the entirety of the Bill? Many changes were made by the Business and Planning Act 2020 when we were in the midst of the Covid emergency. Many of those measures brought in in those emergency times are now set to be made permanent by virtue of the Levelling-up and Regeneration Bill.

I will mention one example to make my point. Under the Bill, the consultation time for pavement licences for cafés or other venues is currently proposed to be cut from 28 days to 14 days. Does my noble friend the Minister really believe that there is a need to take a fortnight out of that consultation process? Potentially, this would be a prima facie breach of the public sector equality duty, as it is likely that it would adversely impact disabled people, who often need increased time to have the consultation in different formats and to be made aware of the consultation. Can it be right to put in the Bill measures which were introduced for a specific purpose at a specific time and seek to make them permanent?

In conclusion, as has already been said, there is a clear need to tidy up the real issue between planning and licensing. If we could enable the system to be inclusive by design, with venues’ access requirements clearly being reviewed at the time of the licence application, it would benefit the venues. There would be a financial benefit, and it would benefit patrons. It would benefit not just disabled people or older people but all people. Communities, our cities and our country made better—would not my noble friend the Minister want to get right behind that?

Covert Human Intelligence Sources (Criminal Conduct) Bill

Lord Holmes of Richmond Excerpts

Report stage & Report: 2nd sitting (Hansard) & Report: 2nd sitting (Hansard): House of Lords
Wednesday 13th January 2021 Lords Chamber

[Baroness Bull (CB)]

I rise principally in support of Amendments 12 and 13. My strong preference would be for these straightforward amendments, which would prevent all use of children and vulnerable adults in the way the Bill proposes to allow. If the noble Lord, Lord Young of Cookham, presses this, I shall vote with him. If the House cannot align behind this absolute position, I shall support Amendment 24, so effectively argued by the noble Baroness, Lady Kidron.

I have heard nothing in previous stages of the Bill to convince me to drop my fundamental opposition to the use of children as covert intelligence sources, and certainly nothing to persuade me that this further expansion of their use in authorised criminal activities should be allowed. Encouraging children into criminality to serve the ends of the law stands in direct opposition to what should always be our priority, which is to extract children and other vulnerable people from situations and relationships that promote criminality. It also contravenes existing child protection laws, including the UN Convention on the Rights of the Child. As the noble Lord, Lord Young, said in his as ever excellent speech, they make it clear that a child’s best interests must be a primary consideration in all decisions regarding that child. As the helpful joint briefing that many of us received from Just for Kids Law, Justice and the Children’s Rights Alliance for England points out, if a parent were knowingly to place a child in a dangerous, criminal situation, the law would rightly take action to remove that child to a place of safety. Yet that is exactly what the Bill authorises the law to do.

We also know, as the noble Baroness, Lady Kidron, so forcefully reminded us, that the children most likely to be recruited as covert sources are already among the most vulnerable, at risk of being targeted by criminal gangs and more likely to come from disadvantaged backgrounds, to live in deprived areas, to have fewer opportunities and to have suffered from trauma, substance misuse, mental health issues and learning disabilities. These children need the law to protect them, not to exploit them.

Nor have I heard anything to persuade me that the value of children’s covert activities would be such that it overrides these moral concerns. In fact, there is good evidence to the contrary—that teenagers are not particularly effective covert sources, because of the status of their neurological development. As the brain develops into adulthood, the connections between the rational and emotional parts of the brain grow stronger and more effective. But in teenagers, this process is still under way, and adolescents process information with the part that deals with emotion. That is why teenagers are more likely to act not on the basis of reason but on instinct; it is why they are more likely to engage in risky behaviour and less likely to consider the consequences of their actions.

Added to this, most young people involved in gangs and drug supply are themselves regular users, often because they need to fit in with a prevailing drug culture. Drug use also impacts on brain development, delaying further the development in the connections between the logical and emotional parts of their brains. So alongside the moral question of whether it can ever be right to encourage children into situations of criminality, we have to set an equally serious consideration about the accuracy, consistency and completeness of any information they are likely to provide. In this case, as in so many, the end result does not justify the means.

Amendment 13 would prohibit granting of criminal conduct authorisation to vulnerable individuals, victims of modern slavery or trafficking. I have raised at previous stages the concern of Anti-Slavery International: people who have been trafficked or enslaved are unlikely to be able to give informed consent, because of the experiences of manipulation and control they have endured and the long-term psychological implications of this on their ability to take independent decisions. This amendment would give vulnerable and already traumatised people the protection that they deserve. Alongside this, however, I would welcome a commitment from the Minister to address the omission from the code of practice of any reference to mental capacity and the specific issues to be taken into account when dealing with individuals with impaired decision-making capacity.

The Government’s own Amendment 26 seeks to introduce safeguards to the granting of criminal conduct authorisations to children used as CHIS. However, as we have heard—I shall not repeat the reasons—this amendment falls short of addressing the concerns expressed by this House. It largely reiterates existing safeguards and still fails to ensure that 16 to 17 year-olds and vulnerable adults have access to an appropriate adult at all meetings.

Amendment 24 would place protection for children, victims of modern slavery or trafficking and vulnerable adults on a statutory footing. These are some of the most vulnerable people in our society. Their protection needs to be enshrined in law and, if the noble Baroness, Lady Kidron, decides to divide the House, I will be voting with her.

[Lord Holmes of Richmond (Con) [V]]

My Lords, I support Amendment 12 in the name of my noble friend Lord Young of Cookham. It is clear, coherent and consistent. It seems to me that my noble friend’s parliamentary career from the outset has been marked out by two great skills. First, he has the ability of get to the essence of the issue in front of him at the time. His second—and greater—skill is the ability to see where things are going, not least in the near and mid future. In his excellent opening speech, he demonstrated both skills perfectly.

I urge him to press Amendment 12 to a Division. A majority of noble Lords have spoken in favour of it. It is a matter of testing the opinion of the House on what is right, rather than what may fit with a particular day’s parliamentary arithmetic. I cannot improve on any of his words in his introduction, save to say that I agree with every last detail, and I urge him, as have a majority of other noble Lords, to press his amendment to a vote.

[Lord Russell of Liverpool (CB) [V]]

My Lords, I will speak to Amendment 24. I am grateful to my noble friend Lady Kidron for taking the lead on this amendment, to Stella Creasy for working with us so effectively from another place, and to a wide range of parliamentarians across all parties in both Houses.

As my noble friend Lady Kidron said in her comprehensive introductory speech, we are dealing with children, a point made forcefully just now by my noble friend Lady Bull—children, physically and mentally; children often abused, vulnerable, confused and frightened; children whose moral compass and sense of what is normal and of what is right and wrong may be tragically awry. Whatever they may have done, and whatever they may have become involved in, they are still children in statute, in international charter and in conscience. They need and deserve protection.

I pay tribute to the Minister, to her colleagues, and in particular to her friend James Brokenshire, who was mentioned on Monday and is in all our thoughts—I reiterate on behalf, I suspect, of everybody speaking today our best wishes for his speedy recovery—to the Bill team, and to the different individuals she has linked many of us up with to deepen our understanding of this complex background. She has made clear from the start that she understands our concerns, is sympathetic in principle and is keen to find ways to build in additional safeguards that will protect the child but also, very importantly, will build greater trust both within and without Parliament. Government Amendment 26 is not a bad start but, for the reasons stated eloquently by my noble friend Lady Kidron and others, I fear it is not good enough. A slightly enhanced re-emphasis of the status quo is not going to make a material difference to these children.

I entirely support the spirit behind Amendment 24 and I am grateful that the Government, even if they feel unable to accept it today, have acknowledged that our concerns are genuine and that there may be further work to be done before the Bill becomes law. In addition to what is stated in Amendment 24, I would like to place on the record four additional ways in which safe- guards and processes might be enhanced and improved. I have already shared these with the Minister. First, I ask the Government to consider involving IPCO from the very inception of the authorisation of a child deployment. I share the confidence of my noble friend Lord Anderson in the capacity of IPCO to oversee these highly sensitive issues, and I suspect that IPCO itself would be broadly receptive to this idea and that it could undertake this using its current resources. This would mean that, with child deployments, IPCO would be being proactive, not primarily reactive.

Secondly, for children in care who may become child CHIS, how can we enable the relevant social worker to be appropriately involved? There are many cases where the social worker is unable to do so for a variety of reasons, personal, organisational or legal, and we have work to do to ensure that there are always effective substitutes to hand. Thirdly, can we commit to a comprehensive audit and review process at the end of every child deployment to assess what went well, what went less well, what we learned and what we are going to do about it? Lastly, do we not have a duty of care to follow up with ex-child CHIS to monitor their welfare, to help and guide as necessary, and to measure the effects, if any, of their experience during deployments? This would truly be putting the interests of the child at the centre of the process and would acknowledge our responsibility to help them ensure a successful transition to adulthood.

I commend Amendment 24 to the House. I applaud the Government for being in listening mode and I urge all noble Lords to agree to this amendment, to send a clear message that we have more to do but that we intend to work with and not against the Government to achieve this.

Port Examination Codes of Practice and National Security Determinations Guidance Regulations 2020

Lord Holmes of Richmond Excerpts

Friday 10th July 2020 Lords Chamber

[Lord Holmes of Richmond (Non-Afl) [V]]

My Lords, I thank my noble friend the Minister for the clear and comprehensive manner in which she introduced the regulations, as is always her style; she has a great knack of making the complex comprehensible. Like other noble Lords, I will comment on the retention of biometrics. Can my noble friend say how much of a compromise position the five-year mark was, and how strong the evidence and arguments were for having a longer period—potentially, as the noble Lord, Lord Mann, suggested, 15 years?

Secondly, on the question of ports and the UK border, I think it would be fair to say that, in many ways, we do not have a porous border but a partial border. Can the Minister tell us what number of ports of all types are currently, to all intents and purposes, unpersonned in this respect? What percentage of the overall number of ports is this, and how many different levels of coverage are there from, say, an unpersonned port all the way through to what one might expect at the highest level at, say, London’s Heathrow Airport?

As a number of noble Lords have commented, if the Minister’s department were to make the case for greater coverage at all ports, I think that would get a good deal of support from all parties across Parliament.

Covid-19: UK Border Health Measures

Lord Holmes of Richmond Excerpts

Thursday 4th June 2020 Lords Chamber

[Baroness Williams of Trafford]

My Lords, we will not have these measures in place for any longer than we need to, and, as I say, they will be the subject of regular review. Way back, between February and March, we had enhanced monitoring at the border because cases were low here. There was no point doing that when cases reached a high level. However, now that cases are back to a low level, this is the time to put these measures in place. However, I assure my noble friend that they will be regularly reviewed and that we do not want to keep them in place for any longer than we have to.

[Lord Holmes of Richmond (Con)]

I agree with comments from other noble Lords and congratulate the Minister on all the work she does for this House and for the country. What advice would she give to people who are thinking of a summer holiday abroad this year, and indeed to those who have already paid a deposit for a summer holiday? Should they go ahead and pay the balance and look forward to a lovely trip because these measures will be long gone before the start of the summer holidays?

[Baroness Williams of Trafford]

I am one of those people who would like a summer holiday and do not know whether I will have one. As I say, we will regularly review the measures that we have in place. We want people to have a summer holiday and we want to unlock the country as soon as we possibly can. There would be nothing nicer than for us all to have a nice holiday at the end of July.