Enterprise Bill [HL]
Debate between Lord Hodgson of Astley Abbotts and Lord Young of Norwood Green
Lord Hodgson of Astley Abbotts (Con)
My Lords, I have added my name to Amendment 50, and will pursue the point made by the noble Baroness, Lady Sharp. It will not surprise the Committee, given my interest in the charitable and voluntary sector and the reports that I have written for the Government, that my line of questioning follows that which the noble Baroness has just raised.
It is absolutely clear that many charities and voluntary groups carry out functions which the Government find difficult to fulfil. The Government can provide the vanilla flavour, but the more difficult and challenging aspects of our society may often be better addressed through smaller, local voluntary groups. They will therefore have, in the words of the Bill,
“functions of a public nature”,
and be,
“funded wholly or partly from public funds”.
Rather than wait until today’s debate, I asked the Minister’s officials to throw a little light on the matter, and they very kindly wrote back. My question was whether the definition of a public body under Section A9(7) would cover bodies such as the Charity Commission and some charities. The answer was:
“The Charity Commission would fall within the definition of public body (it’s a non-ministerial department and therefore part of the civil service). No targets can be set for charities unless they are also public bodies prescribed in the regulations. We will set out the full list of public bodies for whom a target may be set in regulations. There will be an opportunity for those affected to respond to a consultation on this during the passage of the Bill through Parliament”.
We are discussing it in Parliament today, but I have not yet seen the regulations, although I may have missed them. This is a trifle too opaque. The sector is entitled to greater clarity now so that we can provide the appropriate level of scrutiny.
We are all very much aware of the deficiencies in the process for scrutinising regulations or statutory instruments—we had a clear example of that last week. I very much hope that, if my noble friend cannot give a direct answer this afternoon and tell us where the list is, she will be able to promise us clarity before we reach Report, at which time we could have a further, better and more focused debate on this issue, which means a lot to individual charities and voluntary groups. They need to know exactly what lies in store for them.
Lord Young of Norwood Green (Lab)
My Lords, I support the amendments. I slightly disagree with my friend in this matter, the noble Baroness, Lady Sharp. I do not see anything wrong with setting targets; obviously, there ought to be consultation. The question I wanted to ask is: apart from these public bodies, is each ministerial department to be set targets? Do they currently have targets? In my brief ministerial career, we used to gather departments together and get them to report at least once a month on whether they were meeting apprenticeship targets. I would welcome a comment on that.
The Government have set themselves a big task in reaching a 3 million target over the course of this Parliament. I have on many occasions raised the problem of having a large public target, such as 3 million. The latest figures I have for apprenticeship starts show that there were 444,000 during 2013-14, which is good until you realise that a significant number—some 161,000—were aged 25-plus. I have nothing against adult apprenticeships as such, except that, if we disaggregate the figures again, a significant number would not be new-start apprenticeships but people being reskilled in existing jobs. I still think that the challenge we face is getting more young people into apprenticeships—those numbers are much lower and, in some cases, we have even had a decline. It is not as though the demand for apprenticeships is not there. For example, Semta’s estimation for the number of engineering apprenticeships required over the next period of time is huge—something like 830,000—so we have a huge task on our hands in relation to apprenticeships.
Lord Hodgson of Astley Abbotts
I would be delighted to discuss the issue of a pub code with the noble Lord at any time. All I would say is that he should not describe me as “reactionary”, but as “realistic”.
Lord Young of Norwood Green
I do not know whether the noble Baroness has a copy of the letter that the noble Earl, Lord Courtown, sent to us, but in it he says:
“In addition, the Skills Funding Agency … runs the apprenticeships helpline which was given an expanded remit in the summer, enabling anyone involved in an apprenticeship—not just the apprentice—to raise concerns about any element of how the apprenticeship is being delivered”.
I did not get a response on the concerns expressed in the Ofsted report and in anecdotal accounts. The letter goes on to say:
“The SFA have rigorous checks in place and have embarked on a programme of staff training to ensure that these issues are dealt with effectively”.
I like the promise. I would put against it “CAD”—“check against delivery”. How will it do it, given the vast number of apprenticeships? That is not to dismiss the fact that Ofsted will also do some work on this, but there is a commitment in that letter.
Setting the standards is one thing. Having a defined framework in understandable language is great. The problem we have is those employers that might do that, but fail to deliver. It says in the legislation that they will be punished and fined. I am interested in that because it might help, but I am far more interested in seeing whether the Skills Funding Agency has the ability to monitor apprenticeships to ensure that they are delivering on quality as well as quantity and how it will do it. If the Minister does not have an answer that is okay; I am quite happy to accept it in writing. However, it is a part of the Government’s commitment to raising quality as well as quantity.
English Apprenticeships (Consequential Amendments to Primary Legislation) Order 2015
Debate between Lord Hodgson of Astley Abbotts and Lord Young of Norwood Green
Lord Young of Norwood Green (Lab)
My Lords, I have nothing to complain about in the substance of what the Minister has just indicated. Raising the participation age makes sense. However, I have recently expressed my concern in at least one debate about the recent Ofsted report which said that a number of apprenticeships were failing to meet standards. That should be of real concern to a Government who I know are committed to apprenticeships and to raising their quality. The problem is that this is the old story about checking against delivery. There has never been a perfect situation where all apprenticeships were right, but the report from Ofsted is worrying. It distinguished between the kind of apprenticeships that you get in retail and social care, and those in engineering and other types of apprenticeships. It said that most problems were in those to which I referred first—in retail and social care.
I was discussing this issue recently with someone who has experience in this field. They told me that, for instance, in some cases the amount of time that training providers have for each apprenticeship is pitifully low. I cannot remember whether they were saying that it was an hour a week or an hour a month, but it was very low. If we are serious about improving the standards of apprenticeships and the perception that people have of them—that they are just as good a route as an academic one—we really cannot afford to be complacent.
I also raised on a previous occasion what was perhaps an even more worrying occurrence, where an apprentice was sent out one day to work in a factory and never returned home, as a result of an appalling industrial accident. I had an exchange of correspondence with the Minister but I cannot say that it made me feel any more sanguine about the treatment of young apprentices. He said that there is a duty on the employer: well, we know that. But surely there is also a duty on us all, and on the training provider, to ensure that if they send a young person to a particular location, they will have checked out whether the employer is reliable and responsible. I do not expect the Minister to give me all the answers today because this is not an easy problem to solve.
To sum up, we must ensure the quality of apprenticeships; not just talking about it, but ensuring that we have a system and a process in place so that we can say with confidence to young people and their parents that when they embark on an apprenticeship, not only will the quality of the training be first class but the safety of the young person will be assured. I think that we have a lot to do in this area. If we are serious about pushing the target up to 3 million—I assume that the Government are serious—which is very ambitious, we should note that a number of people have expressed their concerns by saying: never mind the quantity, it is the quality that we have to ensure. I am just as keen as the Government to increase the number of apprenticeships, but I would like an assurance that the Minister will check that we have put the right procedures in place to ensure both the quality and the safety of apprenticeships.
Lord Hodgson of Astley Abbotts (Con)
My Lords, the noble Lord, Lord Young of Norwood Green, is of course second to none in his support for and encouragement of apprenticeships. Next week, we will come to a very substantial discussion of apprenticeships during our consideration in Committee of the Enterprise Bill, of which this order may be an hors d’oeuvre, and maybe not even that. All I would like to be certain of, and I am sure that my noble friend will be able to give me this assurance, is that what we are doing in this piece of legislation will not inhibit or restrict our debates on the clauses that relate to apprenticeships in the Enterprise Bill, which I suspect we will get to on either Monday or Wednesday of next week in Committee.