Education Bill

Lord Hill of Oareford Excerpts

Wednesday 9th November 2011 Lords Chamber

[Baroness Jones of Whitchurch]

My Lords, we have some sympathy with the aims behind this amendment, and understand, as I am sure many noble Lords do, the advantages that can flow from giving young people a practical demonstration of democracy and representation. As the noble Lord, Lord Hill, said in an earlier debate on this issue, the previous Government went some way towards expanding pupil representation and consultation with governing bodies. As I understand it, specific provision was made in the Education and Skills Act 2008 to require governing bodies to invite and consider pupils’ views, but this has not yet been enacted. Perhaps the Minister could clarify whether the Government are now going to implement the provision in the previous Act.

In the mean time, I listened very carefully to the speech made by the noble Baroness, Lady Howe, but would still sound a note of caution on the wording of her amendment. It would seem, as it stands, to apply equally to pupils of all ages, and we are not convinced at this stage that that is the right way to proceed. As the noble Baroness indicated, some primary school pupils might struggle to understand some of the issues on governing body agendas, and there is, as has been pointed out, the issue of whether it is appropriate for them to deal with teacher discipline and conduct issues. It is therefore perhaps more appropriate to find a level of involvement for young people in governance issues that is more age-specific. However, we very much support the idea of strengthening pupil engagement and hope that the Minister is able to suggest other ways in which this might be achieved.

[The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for Schools (Lord Hill of Oareford)]

My Lords, I am grateful to the noble Baroness, Lady Howe, for returning to this issue. As she said, unfortunately she was not able to be present at Committee stage, where some of the important points that she has raised tonight were debated, although she kindly gave us advance notice. I am glad that she has raised them again tonight.

The noble Baroness spoke eloquently of the importance of encouraging pupils to participate in decisions that affect them. I think that support for the principle that she is seeking to achieve is shared on all sides of the House, by the noble Baroness, Lady Jones of Whitchurch, and by my noble friend Lady Walmsley. I would certainly agree with her that involving pupils in that way can help to make sure that decisions properly reflect the interests of pupils, contribute to their development and encourage them to feel a sense of involvement and pride in their school. It is also of course a fundamental principle of the United Nations Convention on the Rights of the Child, to which this Government are a signatory.

The evidence also shows that schools themselves share the views expressed by noble Lords today on this issue. We know that the vast majority of schools involve their pupils in a variety of different ways. Over 95 per cent of schools already have a school council. Pupils of all ages can serve as associate members of governing bodies, which means that they can attend and speak at governing body meetings. Governing bodies have the power to invite pupils of any age to attend and contribute to governing body meetings. That is extremely important.

I share some of the reservations expressed by the noble Baroness, Lady Jones of Whitchurch, as to the specific amendment tabled by the noble Baroness, Lady Howe of Idlicote, in that it would add to our current arrangements a requirement on all governing bodies of all maintained schools to have an unspecified number of student governors. The amendment would apply to the governing bodies of all maintained schools, including nursery schools. It would force all governing bodies to change their instrument of governance and appoint pupil governors, even if they already had effective arrangements for pupil participation in decision-making.

I am keen to continue to talk to the noble Baroness about these issues and about governance more generally, as I think she and I have a shared interest in this issue. However, as she might expect from the conversations we have had on governance, she will know that placing this additional prescription on the constitution of governing bodies runs counter to the Government’s broader policy on school governance, where we are trying to give governing bodies more freedom to recruit governors based on skills and to minimise prescription around the proportions of governors required from different categories.

I have reflected on the points that were made in Committee and again today, but I continue to believe that there are sufficient ways for governing bodies to take account of pupil views. I do not think it would be right to place a mandatory requirement on all maintained schools—including primary schools—to appoint pupil governors. The noble Baroness, Lady Jones of Whitchurch, mentioned the Education and Skills Act provisions on pupil consultation. There is a requirement on schools to have regard to guidance on pupil consultation, an issue which my noble friend Lady Walmsley raised. We will be talking about that further in response to her Oral Question.

I hope that the noble Baroness, Lady Howe of Idlicote, knows that I am always ready to talk to her about governance, and I am happy to talk further about this issue. While I agree with her on the importance of involving pupils and the benefits this can bring, I cannot support this specific amendment. I would therefore ask her to withdraw her amendment.

[Baroness Howe of Idlicote]

My Lords, I am most grateful to all those who said a few words, some in support and some not in support of my amendment. I am particularly grateful to the Minister because he has been extremely helpful in many respects as far as the role of governors is concerned. Wearing my NGA hat—I should perhaps have said earlier that I am president of that organisation—I know that it, too, is very grateful for the value that he and the Government place on the important role of governors.

I am obviously sorry that the Minister cannot move quite as far as I would like to move. However, I shall continue to hope that I shall live long enough to see my particular wish come true. With that, I am happy to withdraw my amendment.

--- Later in debate ---

Moved by

[Lord Hill of Oareford]

3: Schedule 12, page 115, line 29, after “membership” insert—
“(ba) the members to include—(i) staff and students at the institution, and(ii) in the case of a sixth form college corporation, parents of students at the institution aged under 19,”

[Lord Hill of Oareford]

My Lords, I will speak briefly to government Amendment 3, which maintains a requirement for colleges to have staff, student and, in the case of sixth form colleges, parent governors. It addresses the commitment that I made on Report to return to the House with an amendment that would give effect to what the noble Baroness, Lady Jones of Whitchurch, sought to achieve in laying down her amendment on Report. I am glad that this amendment has her support, and I am grateful to her for raising this issue with my honourable friend Mr Hayes, the Minister for Further Education, Skills and Lifelong Learning. We have stuck to her amendment as closely as we could. The only change that we have made is to add parent governors for sixth form colleges, which I am sure is what the noble Baroness, Lady Jones of Whitchurch, would have intended.

It was not our intention to encourage colleges to remove staff, student or parent governors. We merely wanted to ensure that any legislative requirements did not affect any case to the ONS for the reclassification of colleges back to the private sector. We believe, as I know the noble Baroness does, that it is possible to reconcile both those important objectives, and this amendment does that. I beg to move.

[Baroness Jones of Whitchurch]

My Lords, I am grateful for the earlier discussions held with the Minister and his colleague, John Hayes. As the Minister said, he indicated on Report that the Government were prepared to reconsider the issue of staff and student representation. I am pleased to say that this commitment has now been honoured in both spirit and practice in the amendment before us.

It was, of course, the Government’s own amendment that created the issue of representation being withdrawn and quite rightly caused consternation among students and staff. However, on this occasion the Government have been quick to acknowledge the error and put it right. In fact, I would go further and acknowledge that their amendment is indeed better than that tabled by those on our own Benches on this issue, so I am very pleased to support it and for our proceedings on this Bill to end on such a positive note.

Since this will be my last contribution on the Bill, perhaps I could say a few words, particularly on behalf of my noble friend Lady Hughes—who cannot be here this evening but is now the proud grandmother of a baby girl—and also my noble friends Lady Crawley, Lord Young and Lord Stevenson. I thank the Minister and the noble Baroness, Lady Garden, for the courteous and good-natured way in which they have responded to the wide, varied and sometimes extremely controversial issues that noble Lords have chosen to raise on the Bill as we have progressed through it over the months. We started debating the Bill in May, and at times it has truly felt like a marathon. However, throughout the time the Minister has maintained an open door policy and has genuinely sought to answer and deal with our concerns, and for that we are very grateful.

I would also like to thank the Bill team for its hard work. At one stage I thought that I might have to employ a secretary just to keep track of its daily letters. When it started to send letters summarising the previous letters that it had sent, I realised that it was not just me who was having trouble keeping up. I appreciate that all that was intended to be helpful, and it certainly helped us to improve the scrutiny of the Bill.

At the end of the day, the Bill is a better Bill and the time was, in retrospect, well spent. However, I have no doubt that the Secretary of State is as we speak fervently brewing up his next grand plan and that it will not be long before we find ourselves back here again. But, for now, I thank the Minister and urge support for the amendment.

[Baroness Brinton]

My Lords, I, too, thank the Minister for this amendment. I am somewhat relieved, as is the noble Baroness, Lady Sharp, who cannot be here tonight, because it was our amendment about the ONS issue that really sparked the whole debate about student and staff representation in further education colleges. I am grateful for that. In conjunction with the other thanks, I also thank the noble Baroness, Lady Verma, and the noble Lord, Lord Henley, for their contribution to the Bill on the higher education elements that we had earlier. I am extremely grateful to all the Ministers for the concessions that we had in guidance and in other helpful ways, which have happened during the passage of the Bill. As the noble Baroness, Lady Jones, has said, that has helped to improve the Bill from its original state.

[Lord Hill of Oareford]

My Lords, I am grateful for the support for this amendment, which strikes the right balance between raising the issues raised with respect to college classification while safeguarding staff, student and parent voices on the governing body of a college. I am grateful to the noble Baroness, Lady Jones of Whitchurch, for the spirit in which she approached the issue, which summed up how noble Lords on all sides of the House have approached the Bill overall. As the noble Baroness, Lady Jones, said, it is over five months since the passage of the Bill started. At that point, we were moving towards the longest day and we are shortly approaching the shortest day. During that nearly half a year I have been extremely grateful for the advice that I have received from all sides of the House.

As a result of the detailed scrutiny to which the Bill and I personally have been subjected, however painful at times, it is a better Bill. We have brought forward a number of amendments in response to concerns that have been raised—on Ofqual enforcement powers, the duty to co-operate, admissions and inspections, teacher anonymity, colleges, apprenticeships and direct payments. As my noble friend Lady Walmsley said, we have also committed to use statutory guidance or regulations to address concerns raised about behaviour and discipline, careers and part-time students in HE. So I would like to thank in particular my noble friends Lady Walmsley, Lady Brinton and Lady Sharp for their advice, which has helped us. I thank, too, the noble Baroness, Lady Jones of Whitchurch, who I hope will pass on my thanks to the noble Baroness, Lady Hughes of Stretford, for the constructive challenge that they have provided throughout. There have been very important contributions on this Bill from all sides, and from the Cross Benches—particularly on SEN issues and the duty to co-operate—and from the Bishops’ Benches, which have underlined the important role that faith schools play across our education system.

I am particularly grateful for one piece of advice that I received from my noble friend Lord Lucas, which I thought summed up our deliberations on this Bill. It is a quote from John Stuart Mill, who must have been sitting in Committee when he said:

“Education, in its largest sense, is one of the most inexhaustible of all topics … and notwithstanding the great mass of excellent things which have been said respecting it, no thoughtful person finds any lack of things both great and small still waiting to be said”.

I thought that was a pretty good summation of our debate.

Like the noble Baroness, Lady Jones of Whitchurch, I put publicly on the record what I hope the members of the Bill team know privately—that is, my gratitude to them, as they have been exemplary in every way. I have been very glad to receive lots of praise from many noble Lords about how they have behaved, and I am glad to have the chance to say to them, although they always want to be anonymous and nameless, how much I appreciate the work that they have done and how much it has helped all of us arrive at a better place with the Bill.

Amendment 3 agreed.