Railways: Theft

Lord Henley Excerpts

Monday 3rd October 2011 Lords Chamber

[Lord Faulkner of Worcester]

To ask Her Majesty’s Government whether they have plans to amend the Scrap Metal Dealers Act 1964 to prohibit cash transactions, as a means of reducing metal theft.

[The Minister of State, Home Office (Lord Henley)]

My Lords, the Government recognise the significance of metal theft to the United Kingdom. The Home Office is in discussion with other government departments to identify whether any legislative changes are needed to tackle metal theft, including the possibility of moving to a cashless model.

[Lord Faulkner of Worcester]

My Lords, I congratulate the noble Lord on his promotion. I express my regret at the departure from the Government of the noble Baroness, Lady Browning, and wish her a full recovery.

I am pleased that the Government appear to be taking the problem of metal theft seriously. Is the noble Lord aware—I am sure he is—that ACPO reckons that the cost to the United Kingdom economy last year of this crime was something in the order of £770 million and that the problem is getting worse with the rise in the price of scrap metal? I doubt whether there are many Members of your Lordships’ House whose trains have not been delayed as the result of the theft of signalling cable, which is adding thousands of hours of delay to train schedules. Does the Minister agree that the Scrap Metal Dealers Act 1964 is now out of date and that it needs to be replaced by new legislation that increases maximum penalties, eliminates the payment of cash as a means of settling transactions and moves to a system of licensing in place of the registration that exists at present?

[Lord Henley]

My Lords, I join the noble Lord in expressing regret at the departure of my noble friend. We will all miss her very much on these Benches and I only hope that I can perform even half as well as she did, although I hope that I can get majorities larger than the equality that she got on the last Division that she took through this House. We will certainly miss her on this Front Bench.

The noble Lord is right to point to the problems of metal theft. There is not just the direct cost but the cost to the transport industry, to the power transmission industry and to others. We will look at all possible changes that we can make. The noble Lord is right to draw attention to the 1964 Act and possible changes to bring in a cashless model. Whether that would necessarily improve matters needs looking at, but it would certainly improve the traceability of metals and might make it harder for criminals to dispose of them for cash. That is why we want to look at it.

[Lord Jenkin of Roding]

My Lords, does my noble friend recognise that we are still legally in the age of Steptoe and Son and that it really is now time to bring the legislation up to date, in particular to give the police stronger powers to intervene to close down illicit scrap merchants who trade in stolen property and make absolutely no effort to discover where it has come from?

[Lord Henley]

My noble friend is quite right to draw attention to the problems, but it is not just the police who have a role in this; I am thinking of the previous department which I had the honour to serve in. The Environment Agency also has a role, although, admittedly, that role is reserved purely for environmental matters. There is no reason why that role should not be extended to deal with those who are trading in an irresponsible or criminal manner. Having said that, one should always be aware of the danger that one just shifts the problems on to illegal sites and it is therefore very important that we look very carefully at anything we do and what the consequences of any action are likely to be.

[The Lord Bishop of London]

My Lords, in comparison with the very large figure quoted, £26 million, which is the bill for the lead theft from church roofs, might strike noble Lords as rather small, but it is a very great pressure on local communities. Is the Minister aware that one step that we believe would have an impact on the problem and to which he has already referred—making cashless transactions the rule for scrap metal merchants—is, in fact, the rule in almost every other European country, including Bulgaria?

[Lord Henley]

My Lords, I am very grateful to the right reverend Prelate for drawing that to our attention and for emphasising the problems that we and the church are facing. I know that he has been in touch with the Home Office and that Ministers have responded to the church’s concerns about these matters. He is quite right to draw attention to the advantage of the cashless model, but there are other matters that we could look at, such as design, material and even, I understand, reviewing the properties of the copper and lead themselves to see whether they can be made more traceable in due course.

[Lord Berkeley]

My Lords, is the Minister aware that it is not only the railways and power transmission that are affected but telecoms cables? Is he also aware that a lot of these people just stuff the cables into containers and export them? Am I right in detecting a lack of urgency in the Government coming up with a solution, which could be very serious?

[Lord Henley]

I completely refute the idea that there is a lack of urgency. Only the day before my noble friend left the job that I am now in, she hosted a meeting of Ministers from a whole range of departments to look at the problems facing us and what we ought to do. However, I am grateful to the noble Lord for pointing out that an awful lot of this metal is not going to scrap metal dealers but going straight into containers and being exported. I have mentioned the role that the Environment Agency has to play in that, which we will look at.

[Lord Tope]

My Lords, I encourage the Minister in his urgency in dealing with this problem by letting him know that only last week in my borough 14 brass memorial plaques were stolen from Carshalton war memorial and a local church discovered that its bell had been stolen. This almost everyday occurrence is being experienced all over the country. In addition to the methods suggested by the noble Lord, Lord Faulkner, will the Minister also look at making it a legal requirement for scrap metal dealers to register and to check the details of all those selling scrap metal to them?

[Lord Henley]

My Lords, my noble friend is right to draw attention to the fact that not just the more valuable metals like copper and lead are affected but a whole range of others. He mentioned that brass plaques have been stolen; I assure him that there have even been cases of things such as cast-iron manhole covers being stolen, which have relatively little value but can cause major problems if they are stolen. That is why, as I have tried to make clear, we treat this problem urgently and wish to address it as soon as possible.